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Should I be concerned that on my Superduty the OEM wheels are hub centric and my Methods are lug centric? I've been chasing a very slight vibration for several thousand miles now and just realized that it started about the time I installed the Methods. I've had the tires balance twice and they balanced perfectly, but they've always been balanced on the balancing machine...not on the truck.
Probably not a big deal, but thought I'd ask you guys.
Last edited by Norris McCarty; 02-13-2019 at 07:42 AM.
Reason: Spelling
Should I be concerned that on my Superduty the OEM wheels are hub concentric and my Methods are lug concentric? I've been chasing a very slight vibration for several thousand miles now and just realized that it started about the time I installed the Methods. I've had the tires balance twice and they balanced perfectly, but they've always been balanced on the balancing machine...not on the truck.
Probably not a big deal, but thought I'd ask you guys.
Man i used to have the same problem with the methods on my old silverado. The only way to get them right is to torque the wheels to factory spec with the wheels off of the ground. You cant just zip them on and then lower the truck, and torque to spec while the weight is on the ground. You will have to get someone to sit in the truck and push the brakes while you torque them. Once i started do it that way all of my vibration problems were gone.
I'll give that a try. I'll be going back to steel OEM 18s with 285 75 Toyo MTs in a couple of weeks in preparation for the rainy season . Running 12.50 35 18 Ridge Grapplers on 9" Methods now.
Last edited by Norris McCarty; 02-10-2019 at 08:07 PM.
Reason: Spelling
I'll give that a try. I'll be going back to steel OEM 18s with 285 75 Toyo MTs in a couple of weeks in preparation for the rainy season . Running 12.50 35 18 Ridge Grapplers on 9" Methods now.
I bet the way they were torqued is the problem. I called method when i was having trouble and they informed me on the proper procedure. I tried to find hub centric rings that would work, and there was norhing.
I deal with this all the time - short answer is that your factory wheels are hub centric as you know and it’s for a reason. In fact with almost no exception, every car and truck the OE wheels are hub centered.
Careful - even torquing with wheels off the ground is a trick that can help recreate hub centered on lug centric wheels but often with varying results. You should of course always torque evenly with wheels off the ground but for many, this is not standard procedure. And I am not knocking the suggestion above, I know what is trying to be said and again, it does help but my point is it will not recreate hub centering.
I have had, I can’t even count (including a large aftermarket upfitter shop), ask me the same question as you and I tell them the same thing I’ll tell you - the only way to get a smooth ride 100% of the time at all speeds even after balancing is through the use of hub centering. I’ll tell them that and then they argue and I’ve heard every argument up to the most recent which was 3/4 ton and up trucks don’t require hub centering. Lol that was the best one and my response was then why are the factory wheels hub centered - anyway I digress.
Here is the explanation - and I will use my balancer as a reference which is a Hunter Smartweight and I use collets plus a flange plate, most places use cones with a plastic cup but the idea is the same - Balancers rely on hub centering and when you mount the wheel on the balancer, it centers on the hub whether you use collets, cones etc. But just because your tire is balanced, does not mean you still don't have some run out because all wheel/tire combos do - basically you have an egg for a tire/wheel combo. When you take your balanced tire and put it on your vehicle without hub centering, you have just created the possibility of additional run out. This is due in large part to the fact that the bolt circle of the wheel lug holes is not exactly centered with the true center of the wheel.
You may or may not have additional run out as some wheels and tires are more true than others which again is why you get varied results from wheel to wheel and vehicle to vehicle and even when rotating. The vibration you are felling is due to run out, not imbalance. We will just leave it at that and not get into the whole road force thing but really they are kinda of one in the same and cause the same symptoms so I will just call it run out for this sake. By using hub centering rings, you have now centered the wheel onto the vehicle in the same manner as it was on the balancer and as the OE wheels were. You have also minimized run out.
Here is another thing to consider to support what I am saying - imbalance will cause a vibration or shake to come on anywhere from around 30 mph to say 40 mph generally depending on wheel/tire diameter which translates to wheel speed - and will get progressively worse as you increase speed and will always be there.
Vibration due to run out or road force variation will come in only at certain speeds or band of speeds and will sometimes feel worse than other times. Typically, I'll get the complaint that my car shakes from 45-55 and then it is dead smooth again - that is not imbalance. Do yourself a favor and purchase a nice set of aluminum hub centering rings - and even better is to have tires balanced using the hub centering rings - you will get factory ride. See the below link - I am not promoting any one place, that is just an example and yes, you will need to measure and know both your wheel hub diameter and truck hub diameter.
Last point to consider - many retailers and aftermarket wheel companies will say you do not need hub centering rings but the truth really is that aftermarket wheels are not hub centered not because you don't need them, but because it would be so much more costly to make and stock wheels for all the trucks and cars with specific hub diameters, not to mention that they will need to make matching center caps of the same diameters. By utilizing one large hub diameter, the wheel fits a multitude of vehicles and they only need to make one center cap - that is the real reason why aftermarket wheels are not hub centered. I do aftermarket wheels/tires for customers all the time and I will only do them when sold or supplied with hub centering rings, or if they purchase a more costly forged wheel that is application specific with the correct hub bore.
Good luck - let us know how you make out. Also I will caveat what I stated and say some people are lucky enough to run aftermarket wheels and have no issue so they will call to question what I stated above. Remember there are variations in wheels, tires, vehicles and even customer's sensitivities - I am saying that for those who do unfortunately have an issue such as you, what I stated above does apply. I also apply it to all my customers because it is easier and cheaper to do it right the first time verse gamble and have them come back and fix it again.
bernie165, check me on this because I think it supports what you're saying.
I bought two sets of wheels that are the same brand/model but different sizes. They went on two different vehicles. Both vehicles had noticeable vibrations after 45 MPH. I took both of them back and for both vehicles the tires dealer added something that changed the wheels from lug centric to hub centric. I haven't removed the wheels from the vehicle but it sounds like it was a hub centering ring. Once the ring was added - without rebalancing the tires/wheels - the vibration is gone. I had no idea about the lug/hub centric issue. Thanks for the explanation.
I had issues with aftermarket wheels and vibration on a previous truck. Then discovered the wheels were lug centric. My son worked in a tire shop at the time and he tried every possible way to balance them with no improvement.
I would NEVER buy another set again.
Another thing to check, is to make sure your brake rotor keepers are not interfering with your wheel sitting flush on the rotor. The little keepers can cause your wheel to "wobble" ever so slightly. Remove them if so:
Red arrow shows the keeper.
Blue arrows show where my wheel was touching the rotor, and where it was not touching, due to the keeper.
bernie165, check me on this because I think it supports what you're saying.
I bought two sets of wheels that are the same brand/model but different sizes. They went on two different vehicles. Both vehicles had noticeable vibrations after 45 MPH. I took both of them back and for both vehicles the tires dealer added something that changed the wheels from lug centric to hub centric. I haven't removed the wheels from the vehicle but it sounds like it was a hub centering ring. Once the ring was added - without re-balancing the tires/wheels - the vibration is gone. I had no idea about the lug/hub centric issue. Thanks for the explanation.
It sounds from what you are saying that is exactly what occurred - they added hub centering rings to mimic the OE style wheel. A re balance is typically not necessary but as an FYI if you have hub centering rings, make sure they balance with them installed - why not eliminate one more variable (just for future reference as I know your issue is resolved as you stated, but for others who have them).
It is unfortunate but with so many different aftermarket wheel bore diameters plus vehicle hub diameters, no one (myself included) stocks rings so a lot of placing will try it first and cross fingers hoping the customer doesn't come back, but if they do and they are a pretty good shop, they automatically know the next step is to add the rings. I just choose to go through the hassle on the front end to avoid the chance of a return - I am glad they got it resolved for you, I love hearing that and it bothers me to hear others such as RandyTN who had such a bad experience that he is not willing to try aftermarket wheels again. I don' blame you Randytn because long ago before I knew better, I was the same way and for the longest time, my policy was I did not sell any aftermarket wheels because I didn't want the "hassle" until I figured out what the hassle was. It took a while because a lot of people will try to tell you its not true - the lug centered debate verse hub centered will go on for ever LOL. Another point of why you don't hear about it as much is because a lot of people are under the false impression that some vibration/ride quality has to be tolerated with aftermarket wheels and just comes with the territory - and others just simply are not sensitive enough to it and don't care about the vibration enough to address it.
Another thing to check, is to make sure your brake rotor keepers are not interfering with your wheel sitting flush on the rotor. The little keepers can cause your wheel to "wobble" ever so slightly. Remove them if so:
Red arrow shows the keeper.
Blue arrows show where my wheel was touching the rotor, and where it was not touching, due to the keeper.
This is good advice and reminder and if I may expand upon and please don't take this as as trying to argue - but if I may clarify...
I should have added this on my original post but it falls under good balancing procedures which whoever is balancing should be doing for you - that is what you pay for! The wheel hub surface, hub bore and the hub surface and bore on your truck should be completely cleaned both so the wheel mounts to the balancer evenly and then to the truck evenly as ATC pointed out. It doesn't take much to cause an issue - a common balancer salesman pitch is they take their business card and slip it in between the wheel hub and face of the balancer to show you how much that amount can throw balance off - they do this to demonstrate the importance of clean surfaces and the use of colletts plus a flange plate which provides the best and most even clamping of the wheel to the balancer to mimic the same conditions as when the wheel is torqued to the vehicle.
So on your end you can and should double check everything is clean so you don't have issues as ATC suggested - but where I need to clarify is that the wheel won't touch the rotor hub face completely so don't be alarmed by it. If you look on the back of the wheel where it interfaces with the face of the rotor, there will be pads - some it is a ring and some they are square pads and some more like triangle pads. For the vast majority of wheels (ours included), the back of the wheel is never completely flat (notable exception are 19.5 and up wheels which are flat and require thorough cleaning to mount up evenly) and that is so it cuts through so to speak and mounts flush to the rotor surface. The rotor surface is not generally perfectly flat and the wheel surface would not be either, so if they were both flat, you will inherently introduce more run out when they were put together as they won't sit perfectly flat together. Clear as mud - sorry I know, just look closer at your wheel the next time it is off. **You should still clean the entire surface of both faces wheel and rotors - just know there will be some spots it will not touch by design.
For the keepers, those just keep the rotors on while the truck rolls down the line so you don't need them but if you look on the back of your wheel, you will also see reliefs around the lug holes - those keepers never touch the wheel. Notice the ring of raised rust around one of your broken studs from the relief.
Again ATC - please take this as friendly help - you made good points I just wanted to clarify from my experience to help.
Here is an example:
Suggestion to get these - they work great, I use them all day everyday:
***I don't work for 3M - just suggesting what works from my experience.
FYI - I would not recommend torquing the Method wheels to the OEM spec of 165 ft-lbs. I called Method and they recommended a lower torque setting. I believe it was 125 ft-lbs (I have it written down at home).
Bernie,
I would consider lug centric wheels again under one condition. That being I buy the wheels locally and before the shop installs them I want a iron clad warranty my money will be 100% refunded including costs of mounting and balancing both the new wheels and the old wheels back on if any vibrations can’t be eliminated
02-10-2019, 07:20 PM
