Pro's and Con's of the Volare IFS
#46
11-06-2003, 04:39 PM
'ANY midship crossmember removal requires either boxing the rails (IMHO, extreme in a lot of cases) or installing some sort of a replacement crossmember or brace that attaches to the top and bottom of the frame rails and force them to stay parallel."
Absolutely! The frame is supposed to flex vertically. But it's not supposed to twist significantly. I harp about frame boxing, but you're right Joe, adding a crossmember accomplishes the very same thing. You just need to address the twisting issue. Ford put that crossmember there for a reason. Your motor mounts could conceivably serve the same purpose if they hit the frame rails just right. Maybe.... but you'd have to get a little lucky.
The stepping on the front runningboard is valid IMO. If you can step on it without twisting your frame, wonderful. But that's an unlikely event once the mid-crossmember is pulled.
Absolutely! The frame is supposed to flex vertically. But it's not supposed to twist significantly. I harp about frame boxing, but you're right Joe, adding a crossmember accomplishes the very same thing. You just need to address the twisting issue. Ford put that crossmember there for a reason. Your motor mounts could conceivably serve the same purpose if they hit the frame rails just right. Maybe.... but you'd have to get a little lucky.
The stepping on the front runningboard is valid IMO. If you can step on it without twisting your frame, wonderful. But that's an unlikely event once the mid-crossmember is pulled.
#47
11-06-2003, 04:50 PM
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Ok, let's suppose that a person steps on their running board and it does seem excessive in its frame twist. Could a person then fix the problem by adding a large gusset from the cross member up to the top edge of the frame? Just wondering, John 
#48
11-06-2003, 05:02 PM
John
I'm not sure what you're saying. You can use a crossmember, or you can box the frame. Or you can do both. What you shouldn't do is have 4 or 5 foot centers on your crossmembers because you pulled the one under the firewall.
The stepping on the board support test is very unscientific. But it very clearly illustrates what is happening to your frame when you hit a bump or turn the corner. Metal fatigues when stressed like this.
I'm not sure what you're saying. You can use a crossmember, or you can box the frame. Or you can do both. What you shouldn't do is have 4 or 5 foot centers on your crossmembers because you pulled the one under the firewall.
The stepping on the board support test is very unscientific. But it very clearly illustrates what is happening to your frame when you hit a bump or turn the corner. Metal fatigues when stressed like this.
#50
11-06-2003, 05:47 PM
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Well, what I'm talking about, in not too clear language, is the following: I have a bolted-in tranny crossmember. It is bolted to the bottom edge of the frame. It seems to me that if there is triangular gusset installed 9welded) from the top surface of the crossmember to the top edge of the frame then that would provide considerable support to the frame in any twisting situation. Not too clear, but I hope better. John
#51
11-06-2003, 05:50 PM
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Hi, If you say it moved then I'm not the one to dispute you.
I have built three 56 F100's. I never found a need to step/jump on the front (I think that is the one you used) running board mount with the crossmember removed so with that said I haven't seen a twisted frame rail.
The original c'mem was at the rear spring hanger mount as is the orignal rear c'mem. I would think this was done to help prevent the frame rails from twisting and spreading over time (yes I did say twisting). They then used the c'mem to mount the trans.
If you remove the original then replace it with a IFS c'mem I can't believe that you could twist the frame rail just by standing on the running board mount.
You are right about the aftermarket trans c'member and your idea of attaching to both the top and bottom is a good one.
I think for a street machine with a daily driver powertrain and the modifications that most of us have done we don't have to worry about twisting the frame. If you want to drag race it with a mountain motor then things change.
One other thought when we designed engine mounts and control arm mounts one of our objectives was to relieve stress from the frame (we used rubber). If you want to help twist the frame and break control arms or their mounts. Solid mount the powertrain and replace the rubber bushing with steel in the control arms.
Think about what happens at the rear when we install a rear mounted fuel tank and have to move the rear c'mem.
We all have different thoughts and thats what makes the world go around. What ever we do let's build them safe.
I hope you weren't aiming that bus pass remark at me. If you were that was a cheap shot since you don't know a thing about me, perhaps you should look at how you end all of your notes, enough said.
Chuck
I have built three 56 F100's. I never found a need to step/jump on the front (I think that is the one you used) running board mount with the crossmember removed so with that said I haven't seen a twisted frame rail.
The original c'mem was at the rear spring hanger mount as is the orignal rear c'mem. I would think this was done to help prevent the frame rails from twisting and spreading over time (yes I did say twisting). They then used the c'mem to mount the trans.
If you remove the original then replace it with a IFS c'mem I can't believe that you could twist the frame rail just by standing on the running board mount.
You are right about the aftermarket trans c'member and your idea of attaching to both the top and bottom is a good one.
I think for a street machine with a daily driver powertrain and the modifications that most of us have done we don't have to worry about twisting the frame. If you want to drag race it with a mountain motor then things change.
One other thought when we designed engine mounts and control arm mounts one of our objectives was to relieve stress from the frame (we used rubber). If you want to help twist the frame and break control arms or their mounts. Solid mount the powertrain and replace the rubber bushing with steel in the control arms.
Think about what happens at the rear when we install a rear mounted fuel tank and have to move the rear c'mem.
We all have different thoughts and thats what makes the world go around. What ever we do let's build them safe.
I hope you weren't aiming that bus pass remark at me. If you were that was a cheap shot since you don't know a thing about me, perhaps you should look at how you end all of your notes, enough said.
Chuck
#52
11-06-2003, 06:51 PM
"Well, what I'm talking about, in not too clear language, is the following: I have a bolted-in tranny crossmember. It is bolted to the bottom edge of the frame. It seems to me that if there is triangular gusset installed 9welded) from the top surface of the crossmember to the top edge of the frame then that would provide considerable support to the frame in any twisting situation."
John,
You would have triangulation at the trans crossmember and probably have no twisting there. I can't say what you have near the firewall. I did see BlueOvalRages and it twisted something terrible before his crossmember was added. I also saw my Volare prior to boxing. There are others here who have noted the same but choose to be silent on this thread. When you pull the crossmember, resistance to frame twist goes away. You would have to pull an r-board and step on the bracket before and after removal to see what we are talking about. If you're not sure you can see the twist what we refer to, then you have no problem. What we witnessed requires no interpretation. It's not in the "gray area"
Chuck
Your trucks may be perfectly safe. But if you have 5 feet between crossmembers, I do believe your frame twists in a manner it should not. The fact that a frame will twist with removal of this C-member is not just my opinion. I've seen or heard of it quite a few times. But I can't prove that the twist will cause great harm. It sure doesn't look right at all though. It looks like it would squirm on any hard corner. Until you pull a board, you won't really know what we are concerned about so I suppose there is really no need to debate it further.
John,
You would have triangulation at the trans crossmember and probably have no twisting there. I can't say what you have near the firewall. I did see BlueOvalRages and it twisted something terrible before his crossmember was added. I also saw my Volare prior to boxing. There are others here who have noted the same but choose to be silent on this thread. When you pull the crossmember, resistance to frame twist goes away. You would have to pull an r-board and step on the bracket before and after removal to see what we are talking about. If you're not sure you can see the twist what we refer to, then you have no problem. What we witnessed requires no interpretation. It's not in the "gray area"
Chuck
Your trucks may be perfectly safe. But if you have 5 feet between crossmembers, I do believe your frame twists in a manner it should not. The fact that a frame will twist with removal of this C-member is not just my opinion. I've seen or heard of it quite a few times. But I can't prove that the twist will cause great harm. It sure doesn't look right at all though. It looks like it would squirm on any hard corner. Until you pull a board, you won't really know what we are concerned about so I suppose there is really no need to debate it further.
#53
11-07-2003, 09:58 AM
OK, this was my solution to the twisting frame rail problem and I'm still convinced that it is absolutely necessary. If Henry wanted his frame rails to flop in the breeze through the middle of the truck, he'd have used a pair of rivets through the lower flange only on either side rather than the 6 or seven that attached it through all three planes.
The crossmember came from Gibbon F-100's. I cut the mounting plates off the ends, rotated them 180 degrees, and welded them back on. They originally hung down so that the three set of holes per side would allow for height adjustment. Then I added the 1/4" gussets to brace them solidly to the rest of the crossmember. In the photo, it is still mocked up on the cheesy angle iron brackets that came with it. The second photo shows the new mounting points that I fabbed into the frame rails. The reinforcements aren't welded in yet, but the lower rail should give you an idea what I ended up with. Unfortunately, I never did get a shot of the whole thing assembled and now it's back apart for blasting, but I still think you can get the general idea. When I initially noticed the twisting problem, I had hoped that the combination of the rear torsion bar crossmember and the trans. crossmember would stiffen it back up. No dice. It STILL twisted. In fact, it was worse since the two being attached across the bottom caused the twisting rail to lever against the other side and force it to follow. This modified crossmember was the only way I found to get anything lose to the original rigidity.
The crossmember came from Gibbon F-100's. I cut the mounting plates off the ends, rotated them 180 degrees, and welded them back on. They originally hung down so that the three set of holes per side would allow for height adjustment. Then I added the 1/4" gussets to brace them solidly to the rest of the crossmember. In the photo, it is still mocked up on the cheesy angle iron brackets that came with it. The second photo shows the new mounting points that I fabbed into the frame rails. The reinforcements aren't welded in yet, but the lower rail should give you an idea what I ended up with. Unfortunately, I never did get a shot of the whole thing assembled and now it's back apart for blasting, but I still think you can get the general idea. When I initially noticed the twisting problem, I had hoped that the combination of the rear torsion bar crossmember and the trans. crossmember would stiffen it back up. No dice. It STILL twisted. In fact, it was worse since the two being attached across the bottom caused the twisting rail to lever against the other side and force it to follow. This modified crossmember was the only way I found to get anything lose to the original rigidity.
#55
11-07-2003, 12:50 PM
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#56
11-17-2003, 10:16 AM
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Frame boxing
Fenders,
Here is something I'm sure you have run across, or at least someone in this forum has. I have read several articles and watched the No Limit video regarding the Volare installation. All refer to fish plates and frame boxing. I have yet to figure out exactly where the fish plates should go and as far as I can tell, the frame boxing is a matter of preference for the most part. A freind of mine who has a good deal of experience on frame mods and repairs cautions against boxing the frames because it would cause a weak spot at the end of the boxed section due to the added stiffness of the box not allowing enough flex. I understand that there have been hundereds of these installations and I would guess pretty much all of them have boxed frames. I would like to box from the front crossmember all the way back to the trans crossmember.
Do you have any words of wisdom for fish plates, gussets, frame boxing, etc. on my Volare front end install? The Volare unit is tacked in right now at about 1" below the top of the frame at the front end.
Thanks for the advice!
Ike55
Here is something I'm sure you have run across, or at least someone in this forum has. I have read several articles and watched the No Limit video regarding the Volare installation. All refer to fish plates and frame boxing. I have yet to figure out exactly where the fish plates should go and as far as I can tell, the frame boxing is a matter of preference for the most part. A freind of mine who has a good deal of experience on frame mods and repairs cautions against boxing the frames because it would cause a weak spot at the end of the boxed section due to the added stiffness of the box not allowing enough flex. I understand that there have been hundereds of these installations and I would guess pretty much all of them have boxed frames. I would like to box from the front crossmember all the way back to the trans crossmember.
Do you have any words of wisdom for fish plates, gussets, frame boxing, etc. on my Volare front end install? The Volare unit is tacked in right now at about 1" below the top of the frame at the front end.
Thanks for the advice!
Ike55
#57
11-17-2003, 10:33 AM
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Re: Frame boxing
Ike55,
I'm sure 'fenders will respond, but my understanding of the need in boxing the frame is this. A frame with a straight axle is supposed to flex. However, when you add an IFS, most if not all of the flexing is now done by the IFS, so you do not want the old frame to flex anymore. Boxing strengthens the frame and keeps the flexing to a minimum. I boxed my F-3 frame with Volare crossmember back to the cab mounts...
I'm sure 'fenders will respond, but my understanding of the need in boxing the frame is this. A frame with a straight axle is supposed to flex. However, when you add an IFS, most if not all of the flexing is now done by the IFS, so you do not want the old frame to flex anymore. Boxing strengthens the frame and keeps the flexing to a minimum. I boxed my F-3 frame with Volare crossmember back to the cab mounts...
#58
11-17-2003, 11:00 AM
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I am in the prosess of mounting my Volare front and have a question after reading through this thread. Are T bar end brushings and pivot brushings the same thing? They dont stock them here in Norway. Where can I find them in the States? What part number do I ask for? Have any suppliers you recommend?Are they difficult to replace? Could this be the reason my front is so soft and wobbly? When I start my engine, the whole front end kind of tilts to one side.
#59
11-17-2003, 04:43 PM
Ike
There are no fish plates in a Volare install. It's not a frame chop, just a notch. Not sure where that came from. Follow the No Limit instructions and you won't be disappointed. I romise it will be strong if you use the procedure and weld properly.
Airwick
You got a picture of your current install by chance? I trust we are welded in now? Pivot bushings and end bushings are two different things. I don't know where you can get them overseas. Start with wherever you would get a Volare part. I'll ship some over to you if you need me to. Or shipping would be free if you don't mind picking them up in Tiktrit, Iraq. Let me know.
There are no fish plates in a Volare install. It's not a frame chop, just a notch. Not sure where that came from. Follow the No Limit instructions and you won't be disappointed. I romise it will be strong if you use the procedure and weld properly.
Airwick
You got a picture of your current install by chance? I trust we are welded in now? Pivot bushings and end bushings are two different things. I don't know where you can get them overseas. Start with wherever you would get a Volare part. I'll ship some over to you if you need me to. Or shipping would be free if you don't mind picking them up in Tiktrit, Iraq. Let me know.
#60
11-17-2003, 07:37 PM
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fish plates.... we need some stinkin fish plates
fenders my buddy...
there are fish plates in a volare install... at least in some of them..
when the frame rail is notched and the sub frame welded in, the area where the front of the sub frame tucks up under the rail might need more support. Especially if you remove the ears from the Volare unit. the fish plates are added under the V-clip and the ears to help strengthen the forward frame rails..just a little extra boxing that will put back some of the metal that the notching removed.
When I notched mine (with templates) that was the thinnest part of the frame rail and I added the extra 3/16 plate in there for support. Bob of Bob's f-100 detailed it in his article and called them fish plates... I don't know what you call them but they help... just ask Bob...cause Bob knows EVERYTHING !!!
later
john
there are fish plates in a volare install... at least in some of them..
when the frame rail is notched and the sub frame welded in, the area where the front of the sub frame tucks up under the rail might need more support. Especially if you remove the ears from the Volare unit. the fish plates are added under the V-clip and the ears to help strengthen the forward frame rails..just a little extra boxing that will put back some of the metal that the notching removed.
When I notched mine (with templates) that was the thinnest part of the frame rail and I added the extra 3/16 plate in there for support. Bob of Bob's f-100 detailed it in his article and called them fish plates... I don't know what you call them but they help... just ask Bob...cause Bob knows EVERYTHING !!!
later
john