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Ford Dealership Frustration

 
  #31  
Old 12-22-2018, 05:32 PM
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To clarify, my suggestion to check out the 6.7 forums was not made to scare anyone away from that engine. It was made to temper the notion of "worry free".

Folks who bought brand new trucks in the hopes of "worry free" have found themselves worried about water in the fuel making them responsible for a surprise 5 figure bill for fuel system overhaul if the C4 pump fails and Ford finds rust in it (even though the pump mechanism has dissimilar metals that might have shown signs of corrosion regardless of water content in fuel).

Other issues include air leaking from the wheels... another dissimilar metal corrosion issue with the metal TPMS valve stem material interacting with the factory (from China) aluminum wheels. Electronics going on the blink. Regens. Jackhammering. Dropped valves... the list of issues evolves over the years of 6.7 production, but there are always issues, if not with the engine, then with the rest of the truck... like sunroof leaks within the first year in the 2018 models. This isn't to say that the 6.7 is less reliable than the 6.0. It is simply to say that there is no "worry free" new Ford diesel truck made, and with that in mind, one's relationship with the principle servicing dealer is something to consider, along with budgeting for any extended warranties and additional insurance against injection system damage from "bad fuel" (the same "bad fuel" that has no trouble running in the 6.0 and 7.3).

A new truck is more comfortable and more comforting in terms of taking it out for long term travel. But it is not entirely worry free. Just less worrisome than a 6.0. And because a new truck is not worry free, it makes sense to evaluate Ford dealerships through the lens of future service and warranty claims. And that is what this thread is about... Ford Dealerships, not which engine is best.
 
  #32  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Y2KW57 View Post
To clarify, my suggestion to check out the 6.7 forums was not made to scare anyone away from that engine. It was made to temper the notion of "worry free".

Folks who bought brand new trucks in the hopes of "worry free" have found themselves worried about water in the fuel making them responsible for a surprise 5 figure bill for fuel system overhaul if the C4 pump fails and Ford finds rust in it (even though the pump mechanism has dissimilar metals that might have shown signs of corrosion regardless of water content in fuel).

Other issues include air leaking from the wheels... another dissimilar metal corrosion issue with the metal TPMS valve stem material interacting with the factory (from China) aluminum wheels. Electronics going on the blink. Regens. Jackhammering. Dropped valves... the list of issues evolves over the years of 6.7 production, but there are always issues, if not with the engine, then with the rest of the truck... like sunroof leaks within the first year in the 2018 models. This isn't to say that the 6.7 is less reliable than the 6.0. It is simply to say that there is no "worry free" new Ford diesel truck made, and with that in mind, one's relationship with the principle servicing dealer is something to consider, along with budgeting for any extended warranties and additional insurance against injection system damage from "bad fuel" (the same "bad fuel" that has no trouble running in the 6.0 and 7.3).

A new truck is more comfortable and more comforting in terms of taking it out for long term travel. But it is not entirely worry free. Just less worrisome than a 6.0. And because a new truck is not worry free, it makes sense to evaluate Ford dealerships through the lens of future service and warranty claims. And that is what this thread is about... Ford Dealerships, not which engine is best.
My point was two-fold to your previous post: 1st) the 6.7 is likely one of the best diesels Ford ever put into anything. 2nd) Your local dealer doesn't mean squat... To wit: I bought my brand new Ford 6.0 in Oregon from a dealer who had a mgr. (back then) on this site, and yes he gave a nice FTE discount. I took it to the Local dealer many times for oil leaks that they were INCOMPETENT to fix, even though they were a "commercial diesel certified" shop. Beat my head on the wall on that one I did... Until numerous folks here on FTE said: go to another dealer... Which I did, and within 2 hours of dropping the truck off they found 3 leaks, one of which was the bedplate, something a lot of shops don't want to tackle at Ford warranty rates, anyway... It hasn't leaked a drop of oil from anywhere since...

And where would I go buy my next truck? Not the place that is closest and has the best doughnuts... I'm sure you get my point and I have left myself open to retort....

My two points being: you might have to move across the country after you buy your new Ford truck, and where does that leave you? Well, looking for who has the best Ford Service, is where...

Best,
Scott
 
  #33  
Old 12-22-2018, 11:21 PM
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The only problem I've had with my 6.7PSD were the EGT sensors (known problem with '11 and '12) and a Nox sensor. My truck didn't see a shop until 110k miles and I currently have 160k miles which I recently had to have the passenger hub replaced. At this point I really love this truck and don't see any reason to buy a new one. The towing performance of my 6.7PSD is hands down so much stronger than my 6.0PSD that towing is a very enjoyable experience.

Having said this I highly recommend any 6.7PSD from '12 on up as power, reliability, and fuel economy has been really impressive including a nice dry engine with no oil leak to stain my driveway. My cousin is a diesel tech at a Ford dealer since '94 and since the 6.7PSD has been mainstream and the majority of the 6.0/6.4 engines were out of warranty the diesel techs have literally dropped 50%.

My trucks warranty expired 60k miles ago and I sleep well at night with the plan to own it for many years to come.
 
  #34  
Old 12-22-2018, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by diesel_dan View Post
My point was two-fold to your previous post: 1st) the 6.7 is likely one of the best diesels Ford ever put into anything. 2nd) Your local dealer doesn't mean squat... To wit: I bought my brand new Ford 6.0 in Oregon from a dealer who had a mgr. (back then) on this site, and yes he gave a nice FTE discount. I took it to the Local dealer many times for oil leaks that they were INCOMPETENT to fix, even though they were a "commercial diesel certified" shop. Beat my head on the wall on that one I did... Until numerous folks here on FTE said: go to another dealer... Which I did, and within 2 hours of dropping the truck off they found 3 leaks, one of which was the bedplate, something a lot of shops don't want to tackle at Ford warranty rates, anyway... It hasn't leaked a drop of oil from anywhere since...

And where would I go buy my next truck? Not the place that is closest and has the best doughnuts... I'm sure you get my point and I have left myself open to retort....

My two points being: you might have to move across the country after you buy your new Ford truck, and where does that leave you? Well, looking for who has the best Ford Service, is where...

Best,
Scott
A leaking bed plate was the last straw for my 05 6.0PSD that made me trade it in. I fought oil leaks on that engine from 14k miles to 170k miles when I traded it in.
 
  #35  
Old 12-25-2018, 10:23 AM
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As for "bullet-proofed" that's just a marketing gimmick.

There's a reason many call these places FORD STEALERSHIPS -- at least half out there fit that categorization to a "T".

As for the salesman's comments, he's not entirely incorrect. I attend Manheim dealer auctions (world's largest) and when a 6.0 rolls up the yellow flags go up, not quite as bad as the 6.4 but close................you get red, flashing lights (from practically everyone) when a 6.4L hits the auction circle..............
 
  #36  
Old 12-25-2018, 01:46 PM
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It's bad form to ever talk down someone's vehicle. I'm always wary of a dealer that will talk down other makes / models, or even other dealers. Tell me what's great about you and what you are trying to sell me, don't tell me I was an idiot for going somewhere else or driving a different vehicle.

Even with the 6.0, no need to trash it. If the dealer is going to have trouble moving it, just be honest and say something like "that's a great truck you have, but deserved or not folks are wary of those 6.0s, so we might have a tough time selling it on our lot, and could take a beating if we have to wholesale it out". You would understand that position and probably not be pissed off at a rational explanation like that.
 
  #37  
Old 12-25-2018, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pugslyyy View Post
"that's a great truck you have, but deserved or not folks are wary of those 6.0s, so we might have a tough time selling it on our lot, and could take a beating if we have to wholesale it out". .
Pugslyy... brilliant.

If a car sales person had the intelligence to phrase the issue in that manner, they wouldn't be a car salesmen.
 
  #38  
Old 12-25-2018, 09:55 PM
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how much did you think they were gong to offer for a 13 year old truck?

 
  #39  
Old 12-25-2018, 09:58 PM
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I guess what amazes me is I know Ford has a very good training program on the parts side for dealing with customers in a positive way, with the sale, with upgrading the sale and dealing with problems. I've seen it first hand. They must as well for the new car sales. And puslyyy's quote sounds like it would be right out of the parts training, adapted to vehicle sales. What's confusing to me is why wasn't something like that tact taken? Maybe its a rhetorical question .......
 
  #40  
Old 12-26-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TooManyToys. View Post
I guess what amazes me is I know Ford has a very good training program on the parts side for dealing with customers in a positive way, with the sale, with upgrading the sale and dealing with problems. I've seen it first hand. They must as well for the new car sales. And puslyyy's quote sounds like it would be right out of the parts training, adapted to vehicle sales. What's confusing to me is why wasn't something like that tact taken? Maybe its a rhetorical question .......
Well, on the other side of maybe, where it isn't a rhetorical question, I can offer at least one potential explanation.... since I was in Ford's training program, and took those courses, and watched all those video cassette tapes, and drove to adhoc Ford training sites in person, and sat through telecasts on the Fordstar network, which was Ford's "satellite dish" method of communicating to dealers before Al Gore got around to inventing the internet. And here is what happens.... now granted this was all over 30 years ago, but people don't change that much, so the same might be true today, which is:

The people who are committed enough and motivated enough to avail themselves to all the training that Ford offers, are also committed enough and motivated enough to quickly move up, or be moved up, in their position at the dealership. They move up to F&I (finance and insurance, where the deal is signed, and where a lot more money can be made). They move up to closer. They move up to sales management. They move on with their lives into a career that doesn't depend on duping people into believing they are paying less upfront, when they are paying more in the long run, because that continuously shifting line of subterfuge eventually rots one's soul. Whatever they move up to, they are not standing around in the parking lot ready to pounce on the next "up" that wanders in to kick tires on a new truck.

And that's the problem. The front line sales staff... the gregarious greeters that a customer first meets when they wander in... are the least trained... in both the product itself, the professional tactics of successful and sustained sales, and, perhaps more importantly in this case, the cultural dynamics of not dissing someone's ride. Quite often, the front line sales staff are fresh immigrants from other countries, many times Russian and Slavic block countries, where the entire cultural idiom that goes understood without saying to a domestically raised person is literally lost on the otherwise hardworking and well meaning foreigner who is winging it at the first job offered that doesn't involve shaking a fry basket.

That's one plausible explanation. I'm sure there are others.
 
  #41  
Old 12-26-2018, 01:42 PM
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From what I had seen of it, it appeared a good program.

Ain't never seen one of those Ruskie's at a Jersey dealership, but the explanation is what I didn't care to say. So much for making a good first impression on a potential sale. Maybe its better during recessions when the trainees aren't around.

I do hate dealership salesmen though, especially used car. About half the time we had to hunt fo specific vehicles on the OE side, and always if we needed to bring in a used car for the aftermarket programs. I really hated that, to the point I maintain an X-plan just in case, not that I'll ever be getting a new car again in my lifetime.

The highlight of idiocy was when we needed a four wheel disc Chrysler mini-van in the early 90's, which were really had to find. I had a new car salesperson tell me he had one that was disc/drum but turned into four wheel disc when the ABS was activated. Yeah, send me a copy of the window sticker.
 
  #42  
Old 12-26-2018, 03:44 PM
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Dealers will never give you what your trade in is worth. If you think you got a good price on your trade in, they just made it up on the sales price of the new vehicle. Do some research, used cars have a way better profit margins for dealers than new cars for a reason. They give you nothing for your trade and sell it for top dollar or they wholesale it out and don't lose anything. I recently sold my 2006 F350 XLT CCLB 6.0 with hail damage on the roof to get my 2019 F350 . The heads were studded, new EGR and oil coolers, fan clutch, STC, IPR, uplift tubes, dummy plugs, etc etc. The truck was well taken care of and very clean inside and out. It needed nothing. The dealer offered me $5,000 trade in. I quickily sold it myself for $14,500.
 
  #43  
Old 12-29-2018, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 82_F100_300Six View Post
how much did you think they were gong to offer for a 13 year old truck?

Nothing more than trade in value according to blue book.
 
  #44  
Old 12-29-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by olfordsnstone View Post
Nothing more than trade in value according to blue book.
I thought we'd lost you there, Tim...

Still on the fence on what to do?

Scott
 
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:08 PM
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Granted it was over 30 years ago, but when I worked at a dealership, "blue book" was not offered for trade ins. Dealerships didn't even go by blue book. There was a black book that circulated mostly to dealerships... the book itself was priced out of range to consumer car buyers, so it was never available for sale at the five and dime magazine stand like the little Kelly Blue Book used to be. One could go to the library in a large city and find the black book, but apart from that, it was unavailable to most consumers, accept when it was dragged out of the sales manager's office to show buyers something in print that brought them down off the ceiling.

A lot has changed since then. Kelly Blue Books are no longer published in book form. Data is decentralized. The car business *appears* to be more transparent in the wake of the internet, but in fact has instead more clandestinely evolved into more insidious subterfuge to survive. The only way to get the most dollar for your truck is to sell it yourself, like this seller in your area https://reno.craigslist.org/cto/d/re...774785835.html 12 days and no bites. Maybe this guy will have better luck... only 8 days, less money, but more mileage... https://reno.craigslist.org/cto/d/fa...778174423.html

Kelly Blue Book's so called "Trade In Value" cites a range between $8,348 to $11,859 for a 2005 F350 CC SB 4WD 6.0 PSD with 151K miles, and the private parties on CL in your area above have been asking $12K retail for over a week with no takers.

In the FAQ of KBB's website, they remind us that "When you trade a car in, the dealer must then absorb the cost of making the vehicle ready for sale, reconditioning, advertising, sales commissions, arranging financing and insurance and standing behind the vehicle for any mechanical or safety problems." And I can say from experience that the same was true 30 years ago. Dealer's aren't the only ones who are looking to make a buck, rather than barely breaking even. Customers can be even more crooked, if that is even possible. As experienced as the used car manager is with vehicle appraisals, some customers succeed in ditching disastrous turkeys in their trades.... and later gloat in forums online about how they stuck the dealer with pristine looking clunker in disguise needing a 5 figure repair bill. All these risks and costs are factored into the amount offered for trade ins.

I would expect a dealer to offer between $6K to $8K for your trade. If they offer more, it is because they are making more on the entire deal in finance, hold back, volume, flooring, or other factory to dealer incentive to make it worth while for them to help you feel better about what you received for your truck. I'm not defending the dealer, nor the car business. I'm simply trying to provide some alternative perspectives to help dissolve some of the "Ford Dealership Frustration" you have experienced. Adjusting expectations is key.
 

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