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7.3 Idi Non Turbo Runaway

  #31  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RaymondIV View Post
Please explain, unless oil can suddenly defy gravity and fly uphill on its own, how does it flow through the CDR? The CDR is vented into the TOP of the sheet metal valley pan, then there's about a 2+ inch gap between the pan and the valley itself. The only thing a CDR can possible draw in is crankase fumes which it's designed to do. Nowhere in either a FoMoCo or Navistar shop manual is a CDR mentioned in the excess oil consumption diagnosis sections.

Riddletowing, it will be interesting to know what this finally turns out to be.
Ok, I am going to ignore the condecending tone of your post here and answer it honestly. Oil vapor, or mist like all thing is able to remain buoyant in air. This air is then drawn into the engine via the CDR valve. If the valve is faulty, then oil can bypass it. This is how it defies gravity as you put it. The CDR valve its self is literally designed to hold the oil mist in. Or it would serve no purpose to have one. When you pull a CDR valve out it is soaked in oil... the shaft is soaked in oil? How are you missing these points. Even on these forums the CDR valve is a recommended check for oil consumption. The CDR (Crankcase Decompression Regulator) pulls crank case vapors... which have oil mist and vapors... into the intake, which then feeds it to the motor. Was I a bit passive aggressive in my response? You bet, but ignorance, and arrogance, needs to be checked.
 
  #32  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:39 PM
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Sorry, but a CDR valve is an ALWAYS open 1" +/- orifice constantly bleeding crankcase blowby into the intake stream under normal engine operation. Its spring pressure on the diaphragm is only overcome and it closes off if intake air is suddenly shut off. Point being, if it were "faulty", broken spring or torn diaphragm, it would still allow fumes to bleed through like it normally does. And of course it will be oil-coated, blowby is nothing but an oil mist, right?
Even on these forums the CDR valve is a recommended check for oil consumption.
To my limited knowledge, never by anyone who's spent even a day working in a commercial diesel shop, oddly, never yet by a full time truck and diesel mechanic. There IS this IDI guy who surely has a CDR operation figured out:
Ive cleaned my CDR a few times, but something that still baffles me.. most people speak as if they get plugged up with gunk, sludge or what have you. Yet everytime i pull mine off it crystal clean inside, albeit covered in shiny black oil. But always clean, clear and seemingly in working order, FWIW it had never been off until i pulled it, i cracked the paint around the bolts the first time after 286k+
Above is a pic of a valley pan (upside down). Above that big baffle on the top side sits the CDR valve. Below the installed valley pan there's a slight amount of oil running off the pushrods, etc, and laying in the block valley well below the pan and baffle. Can you explain how, other than crankase gases, any actual oil could possibly enter the baffle and then the CDR??
 
  #33  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RaymondIV View Post
Sorry, but a CDR valve is an ALWAYS open 1" +/- orifice constantly bleeding crankcase blowby into the intake stream under normal engine operation. Its spring pressure on the diaphragm is only overcome and it closes off if intake air is suddenly shut off. Point being, if it were "faulty", broken spring or torn diaphragm, it would still allow fumes to bleed through like it normally does. And of course it will be oil-coated, blowby is nothing but an oil mist, right?

To my limited knowledge, never by anyone who's spent even a day working in a commercial diesel shop, oddly, never yet by a full time truck and diesel mechanic. There IS this IDI guy who surely has a CDR operation figured out:
Here we go... resistance by bend, resistance by diaphram allows something we call condensation. Its also not always open in the context you say. You again plug "nobody with commercial diesel" or some other "beleieve me I am the greatest"... yet you couldn't grasp the concept of how oil can mist. Clouds must be frightening for you. The bowl shape is what you are not getting too. Pull a CDR off of an IDI and look at the bowl shape. The oil condenses in it and drips back down. Bad and diaphragm blown CDR drips down the buisness end of the valve. Which gravity, can carry to the intake... which the engine burns.
 
  #34  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RaymondIV View Post
To my limited knowledge, never by anyone who's spent even a day working in a commercial diesel shop, oddly, never yet by a full time truck and diesel mechanic. There IS this IDI guy who surely has a CDR operation figured out:
This actually bothered me enough to freaking look up the TSB on this. It lists the CDR valve in the diagnostic procedure for oil consumption. My god get ready to be shown up. Look for the superseded 85-7-16 and 83-23-15. The updated diagnostic TSB from Ford outlines checking crank case pressure and even the baffle under the CDR valve to ensure that excessive oils is not leaking through the CDR valve into the engine. It is the current oil consumption diagnostic TSB... the repair is 22-08 in the Truck shop manual. In case you are curious, it details replacing the valley pan pushing excess oil through... the CDR valve. Ford calls it carry over oil. Now lets try to help this guy get his truck running.
 
  #35  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:27 PM
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Don't have time to play your game, can't find either TSB plus crankcase pressure has to be checked with a manometer with the CDR blocked off.
The oil condenses in it and drips back down.
Good Gawd man, if oil condenses in it, the oil drips from the diaphragm and metal can back down the CDR tube into the valley, NOT up and into the engine intake stream, think about it.
 
  #36  
Old 11-09-2018, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RaymondIV View Post
Don't have time to play your game, can't find either TSB plus crankcase pressure has to be checked with a manometer with the CDR blocked off.

Good Gawd man, if oil condenses in it, the oil drips from the diaphragm and metal can back down the CDR tube into the valley, NOT up and into the engine intake stream, think about it.
I strait up listed the TSBs that show it. I even gave you the term Ford calls it. It is called Carry Over oil. It is in the Ford Updated diagnostic TSB for the 6.9 IDI diesel. I am assuming you have All Data or some similar source of looking at TSBs. You are wrong, I am right. CDR valve, and associated parts, can feed oil to the engine. It "defies gravity" but it does happen. It is a known issue that you may not believe it, but just like oil can vaporize, oil can also get past the baffle and CDR. I hate to say it, but Ford's latest Diagnostic TSB outlines testing and removing the CDR valve under Oil Consumption. It outlines checking for crank case pressures, checking the baffle to ensure the welds are still in tact and not allowing it to shift. It even goes as far as to give specific pressures expected form the crank case. I am sorry to be so pushy on this, but I only see you ignoring me presenting proof you are wrong. You only provided that "No Industrial Mechanic believes this" as your source. Ignore it all you want, its in the Ford TSBs.
 
  #37  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:42 AM
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Jesus ladies, its called feminine douche, works really well for getting sand out of those hard to reach areas. CDR is normally open to vent crankcase blowby, CDR closes if manifold vacuum becomes too high, which can cause excess oil consumption or run away condition. Engine sludge blocks drain passeges in valley pan, oil backs up into cdr, engine runs away. A failed CDR can cause oil consumption, but ive never seen one, and the air filter would also have to be nearly plugged.

OP: You do not want to block the CDR, you will not have any seals in short order. Simply taking the air cleaner off is enough to rob the cdr of intake vacuum to rule it out, also, you can simply observe it through the intake.
 
  #38  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:16 PM
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FIGHT - FIGHT - FIGHT





EATS POPCORN
 
  #39  
Old Yesterday, 05:59 AM
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exactly my thought. check to see if the fuel return line going back to the tank is plugged.
 
  #40  
Old Today, 06:58 AM
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Wow, I didn't know there was a baffle at the valley pan/ tube connection..., but it makes perfect sense. Next time I visit this ill check for my baffle and use a squeeze bottle to clean the can.
 
  #41  
Old Today, 08:34 AM
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If it works, here's a pic of the pan upside down. Dieselamour, you won't be able to see the baffle but if you remove the CDR and grommet, then stick a punch through the mounting hole you will feel it. In fact, with the ATS turbo system, the CDR mount "hole" becomes the turbo oil drain and ATS recommends punching a couple holes in the baffle for increased turbo drain oil flow down into the block valley. Otherwise, non-turbo the CDR mounts right above the baffle. A little hard for anything but fumes to flow up through there. There's also a baffle directly under the CDR when it's mounted on the left valve cover if the engine has the 093 ATS turbo system so there again no oil can be drawn in. (The original ATS kits included a new valve cover with CDR mount hole and baffle spot welded under it)
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8
 
  #42  
Old Today, 11:37 AM
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Thanks everyone for the help. i got the new injection pump on and everything hooked up and it is running good now so im not sure if something **** out inside both the older pumps but once we was told voltage could cause it we put a rebuilt pump on checked voltage with new battarys and it was fine truck starts and runs good now first idi iv really messed with so really had me brain raddled when it done it with the second pump but shes good to go now. Once again thanks for all the information
 
  #43  
Old Today, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dieselamour View Post
Wow, I didn't know there was a baffle at the valley pan/ tube connection..., but it makes perfect sense. Next time I visit this ill check for my baffle and use a squeeze bottle to clean the can.
Yep, for why though im not sure. Its been considered pretty sage advice to punch some holes in said baffle if youre turbo'd. Just a drift down the cdr / turbo drain hole usually enough to suffice.
 
  #44  
Old Today, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RaymondIV View Post
If it works, here's a pic of the pan upside down. Dieselamour, you won't be able to see the baffle but if you remove the CDR and grommet, then stick a punch through the mounting hole you will feel it. In fact, with the ATS turbo system, the CDR mount "hole" becomes the turbo oil drain and ATS recommends punching a couple holes in the baffle for increased turbo drain oil flow down into the block valley. Otherwise, non-turbo the CDR mounts right above the baffle. A little hard for anything but fumes to flow up through there. There's also a baffle directly under the CDR when it's mounted on the left valve cover if the engine has the 093 ATS turbo system so there again no oil can be drawn in. (The original ATS kits included a new valve cover with CDR mount hole and baffle spot welded under it)
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.supermotors.org%2Fg etfile%2F292171%2Ffullsize%2FDSC00786.JPG&imgrefur l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedieselstop.com%2Fforums%2Ff 30%2Fburning-oil-help-302790%2F&docid=DwQkJdQamhFkKM&tbnid=ct6UNgRYSEWr9 M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwi0rc2P-s7eAhVkLH0KHfFJA-YQMwhqKAAwAA..i&w=565&h=424&bih=643&biw=1280&q=7.3 %20valley%20pan&ved=0ahUKEwi0rc2P-s7eAhVkLH0KHfFJA-YQMwhqKAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8
Lol... and this is why you dont skip posts when responding.

OP, yea sometimes its those strange coincidences that really cause some grief. Seal in the pump went out on my 88, put my spare on, engine didnt run worth AF, white smoke damn near impossible to start, no power. Ok, put my other pump on there, same deal. Turns out the pump on the 88 was installed a tooth off, and they adjust the pump to compensate, so a "normal" pump wouldnt even run because it was so retarded. Didnt even know that was possible, but learn something all the time.
 


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