Executions
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From: West Texas
whistler...i'd be interested in seeing some kind of survey or experiement with released convicts to see how many of them have been re-habilitated or just end right back up in jail.....I honestly believe a person can make a life changing turn, but I don't think its the norm as far as prisoners are concerned....I think the majority of them end back up there...because THEY DON"T WANT TO CHANGE....no one can be rehabilitated until the WANT TO....for many of them it is just easier to continue in their current lifestyle.
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fisher-of-man,
My point is that these people will be let out someday.
Do you want to focus your efforts on beating them down into even more angry, socially deficient, felons or should we focus our efforts on helping them become better people? That is, help them to overcome their personal problems that lead to prison.
Since both are going to get out anyway, who would you rather have live next door?
The current recidivism rate is terrible. I believe it is over 50% for people in prison. That speaks to the current penal system. If you really think that treating prisoners as Jaraxle or you suggest is going to make them better people and will change the recidivism rate, say so. If this is what you really believe, I'll shut my mouth because I certainly will not change your mind.
Whistler
My point is that these people will be let out someday.
Do you want to focus your efforts on beating them down into even more angry, socially deficient, felons or should we focus our efforts on helping them become better people? That is, help them to overcome their personal problems that lead to prison.
Since both are going to get out anyway, who would you rather have live next door?
The current recidivism rate is terrible. I believe it is over 50% for people in prison. That speaks to the current penal system. If you really think that treating prisoners as Jaraxle or you suggest is going to make them better people and will change the recidivism rate, say so. If this is what you really believe, I'll shut my mouth because I certainly will not change your mind.
Whistler
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From: La Tech University, La
I agree with jar and fishMan....Stronger emphasis on punishment. If you can convince someone they do not want to go in the first place...you never have a prob...if you 'take care' of the larger crims. murder, large drug dealers, rape...well less people to take care of..And I still like Bubba's idea, a clear cut case , hang em right there on the spot.
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From: Live Oak, FL
Criminals are self employed people. Many of them are well paid self employed people. If you didn't mind breaking the law and could make 10 times more being self employed, how would you like to quit and start making minimum wage and have someone boss you around and treat you like dirt? It's going to take some powerful persuading to stop a guy from getting out of prison and going back to being self employed.
I already posted my 4 part plan for dealing with criminals earlier (A - If they are dead-bang guilty - execute them immediately, etc.). If they are sentenced to a jail term they should not be put in a hell hole, but they shouldn't be put in Club Med either. Take away the radios, TV's and weight trainning. Give them some books on how to learn a skill. Put them to work doing something 12 hours a day. They could make uniforms, license plates, road crews, vehicle maintenance, etc. so the cost of keeping them would go down. People scream don't let them do it, it's unfair competition. It's free labor. Let us make the uniforms and charge 3 times what they are worth. Bologna! Keep em in there a good long while and maybe when they get out they won't be so anxious to do something that would put them back in there.
I already posted my 4 part plan for dealing with criminals earlier (A - If they are dead-bang guilty - execute them immediately, etc.). If they are sentenced to a jail term they should not be put in a hell hole, but they shouldn't be put in Club Med either. Take away the radios, TV's and weight trainning. Give them some books on how to learn a skill. Put them to work doing something 12 hours a day. They could make uniforms, license plates, road crews, vehicle maintenance, etc. so the cost of keeping them would go down. People scream don't let them do it, it's unfair competition. It's free labor. Let us make the uniforms and charge 3 times what they are worth. Bologna! Keep em in there a good long while and maybe when they get out they won't be so anxious to do something that would put them back in there.
Last edited by Bubba Shrimp; Sep 26, 2003 at 02:14 PM.
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by Jimmy Dean
I agree with jar and fishMan....Stronger emphasis on punishment. If you can convince someone they do not want to go in the first place...you never have a prob...if you 'take care' of the larger crims. murder, large drug dealers, rape...well less people to take care of..And I still like Bubba's idea, a clear cut case , hang em right there on the spot.
I agree with jar and fishMan....Stronger emphasis on punishment. If you can convince someone they do not want to go in the first place...you never have a prob...if you 'take care' of the larger crims. murder, large drug dealers, rape...well less people to take care of..And I still like Bubba's idea, a clear cut case , hang em right there on the spot.
If your life is desperate and you've got nothing to lose, or you're hooked on drugs, do you honestly believe that the punishment factor weighs in on your decision making?
Don't get me wrong here, I think our prison system needs an overhaul, I'm just not sure that hacking off hands and public hangings are the way to go.
History will attest that even the most gruesome of punishments is not enough to eliminate crime from our societies.
Waxy
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Wistler,
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,513
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From: La Tech University, La
Taht is it we only threaten people with doing something they do not wish, we do not carry it out. If I am BROKE living in a crack house or whatever do not get alot to eat...what is the punishment for killing someone? A life of ease? free education, access to gym, good food, three meals a day? COME ON!!
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From: Los Angeles safe and warm
DCarman,
I could be mistaken but I believe no country in western Europe anyway has the death penalty and the crime rate is less than ours. According to the CP advocate logic the criminals should be having a field day over there.
And Jimmy,
The citizens of Singapore do not compare well with us any more than many asian cultures. Japan has little crime and they are not brutal to criminals. Maybe they're harsh in Singapore because crime is so rare they no every criminal is hardened.
I could be mistaken but I believe no country in western Europe anyway has the death penalty and the crime rate is less than ours. According to the CP advocate logic the criminals should be having a field day over there.
And Jimmy,
The citizens of Singapore do not compare well with us any more than many asian cultures. Japan has little crime and they are not brutal to criminals. Maybe they're harsh in Singapore because crime is so rare they no every criminal is hardened.
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From: West Texas
whistler...I think 50 % may be a bit generous....any idea where you saw those numbers? I'm with Jimmy...if we make it where they don't want to go to begin with...then there is no need for rehabilitation.
I agree that empty threats mean nothing to criminals....that's why I think until we have quick, swift, decisive punishment issued only then will we make any headway..... right now your not even gonna get a trial for 1-2 years if your lucky...then after you appeal 5 times...by then you have already wasted 5-10 years without a deciding conviction of whether your guilty or not. just as when you discipline your kids...what gets there attention more? I'm gonna spank you next week or if you do that again I'm gonna spank you right NOW!
you say that history speaks out saying that gruesome punishment doesn't work....what about the people of Iraq? they fear their leader - even when he is not around so much to the point they are afraid to get out of line. what do dictators do to get the attention of people to keep them from stepping out of line? they make examples out of those who don't obey.... not that we need to be dictatorish, but I beg to differ with your opinion that such punishment wouldn't have a preventive affect!
I agree that empty threats mean nothing to criminals....that's why I think until we have quick, swift, decisive punishment issued only then will we make any headway..... right now your not even gonna get a trial for 1-2 years if your lucky...then after you appeal 5 times...by then you have already wasted 5-10 years without a deciding conviction of whether your guilty or not. just as when you discipline your kids...what gets there attention more? I'm gonna spank you next week or if you do that again I'm gonna spank you right NOW!
you say that history speaks out saying that gruesome punishment doesn't work....what about the people of Iraq? they fear their leader - even when he is not around so much to the point they are afraid to get out of line. what do dictators do to get the attention of people to keep them from stepping out of line? they make examples out of those who don't obey.... not that we need to be dictatorish, but I beg to differ with your opinion that such punishment wouldn't have a preventive affect!
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Originally posted by DCarman
Wistler,
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
Wistler,
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
It is putting the theory into practice that is quite troublesome. I'm personally of the mind that executing even one innocent person is too many. The justice system is well thought out in this country, however falliable (note: this also applies to the police) humans are the administrators. That is where I see the problem. Not necessarily with capital punishment. I think this is reflected in my earlier post about irreversability and exile being a preferable option.
As for being the downfall of this country, I highly doubt it. I think this country is stonger because of the people who ask critical questions about important and weighty manners.
Finally, I feel quite badly for you if your only recourse in an intellectual debate is to commence with laying blame and calling names.
Whistler
PS I will be out of town this weekend. See you all Monday.
PPS Ryan, if I crossed the line please edit this post and let me know. Thanks.
Gone but not forgotten.
Joined: Jul 2001
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Originally posted by DCarman
Wistler,
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
Wistler,
Why so anti-capital punishment?
It's people like you who are turning this country into a bunch of PC soft liberal wussys.
What about people who have comitted murder 2 or more times,
serial murderers, what excuse are you going to use this time?
I would like stats, or info regarding counties with the lowest crime rate vs. punishment for crimes.
How many cases in the past 10 years has proven a murder has been "set up" by police?
Why do people think this way?
Dono
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 448
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fisher-
Just to make sure we are clear on the term recidivism rate--it is the percentage of criminals released from prison who go on to commit other crimes. I think 50% is low, but I phrased my response in such a manner that it was hard for me to go wrong.
Sorry if I misunderstood your message--don't mean to be insulting.
I agree that punishment should be swift and severe. But also cognizant of the fact that most criminals will eventually make their way back into the population. When a child misbehaves they are punished but also (hopefully) given an explantion of why their behavior was wrong and some tools to avoid that situation again. It should be the same with criminals in my opinion. It seems silly to cut their hand off and hope they have enough smarts and skills to avoid the same problems.
Also Iraq. The people in Iraq were afraid to vocalize political dissent. There were still tens of thousands of conventional prisoners in the county.
Whistler
PS I will be gone this weekend. See you all on Monday.
Just to make sure we are clear on the term recidivism rate--it is the percentage of criminals released from prison who go on to commit other crimes. I think 50% is low, but I phrased my response in such a manner that it was hard for me to go wrong.
Sorry if I misunderstood your message--don't mean to be insulting.
I agree that punishment should be swift and severe. But also cognizant of the fact that most criminals will eventually make their way back into the population. When a child misbehaves they are punished but also (hopefully) given an explantion of why their behavior was wrong and some tools to avoid that situation again. It should be the same with criminals in my opinion. It seems silly to cut their hand off and hope they have enough smarts and skills to avoid the same problems.
Also Iraq. The people in Iraq were afraid to vocalize political dissent. There were still tens of thousands of conventional prisoners in the county.
Whistler
PS I will be gone this weekend. See you all on Monday.
