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Disc brakes needed? Pics...

 
  #16  
Old 08-18-2018, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
The Hydrastar actuator that etrailer recommends claims a "fast" 0.784 seconds to 200 PSI, and 1.423 seconds to 900 PSI. That made me reluctant to go with hydraulic over disc. 1.423 seconds at 70 MPH is 159 feet! 0.784 seconds to a mild 200 PSI braking is still 88 feet before much braking happens at all. Sounded scary to me. Naturally, the current drum setup I have now is much worse, but if I'm shelling out over $2k, I want awesome brake performance.
I think the bold text is your answer. How far are you going with the brake pedal on the floor in a panic stop with drum brakes?

Just another engineering perspective here also - your distance calculations are irrelevant. The time to pressure doesn't have a precise calculable distance correlation. There are too many factors - wind resistance, brake resistance vs pressure, ect. All you did was "guestimate" the distance based off of travel speed and time to pressurize. Travel speed has too many variables with respect to resistance to calculate accurately.

Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
Doing too much research, as usual for me...
I think so. You sound like me. You have to make the decision in the end, though.

If it were me, I would put more weight on reliability and strong braking ability than number crunch on reaction times. Any of the electric over hydraulic systems are going to offer superior braking compared to drums.
 
  #17  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by KC8QVO View Post
Just another engineering perspective here also - your distance calculations are irrelevant. The time to pressure doesn't have a precise calculable distance correlation. There are too many factors - wind resistance, brake resistance vs pressure, ect. All you did was "guestimate" the distance based off of travel speed and time to pressurize. Travel speed has too many variables with respect to resistance to calculate accurately...
Thanks for the input. Let me clarify what I was referring to about the distances. I gave only the distance a vehicle moves at 70 MPH during the time the system builds pressure (assuming it isn't decelerating) to show how relevant those delays were with respect to highway speeds. I'm not suggesting one could make any estimates of stopping distance using this delay information alone.

The 0.784 delay to 200 PSI gives a fairly reasonable 88' distance (@ 70 MPH) before the trailer brakes start helping slow the rig much, as the speed won't have changes as much in that time. Even if the truck could slow the entire rig at 0.5g (rough, but reasonable estimate on decelleration with only 1/2 of the weight on the truck and no help from the trailer brakes) my 88' estimate is off by only 3 feet. 85' seems like quite a way to travel before the trailer brakes do much IMO. I think a Titan controller with mitigate this concern.
 
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:16 AM
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You absolutely can use brake reaction time to calculate distance traveled before the brakes activate. For me, stepping on the brake peddle and counting a second or more would feel like a long time. It would be an eternity in town if a pedestrian stepped out in front of you.

Something is not right with your drum brakes because drum brakes do work fine....when they're working. I never have my controller set anywhere near maximum and have to dial it back in town to keep from jerking my family members' heads and even further back when empty to keep them from locking on dry pavement. When time comes for replacing them I may look at a disc brake set up but cannot imagine swapping to discs at this time. My current drum brakes are plenty strong and disc brakes would not be an improvement.

I've noticed drum brakes need to activated a few times after they've sat a while to knock off surface rust. Also, new shoes need to be used a bit until they wear in and mate to the drums. Assuming the drum brakes are sized correctly and working properly, the benefit of switching to discs is heat resistance and more even braking (not as important on a camper as on a car/truck). The drawback to discs on a camper (IMO) is more components to fail. I'd definitely look more into the reaction time of camper disc brakes before buying. Delayed response is not acceptable.

Since your brakes are fairly new, I would make sure everything is loose and moving freely and consider getting new Dexter magnets. Also check drums face for excessive wear grooves where the magnets ride.

I'm not opposed to swapping to discs, I just don't like spending money if there's an easy and less expensive fix with the current set up.
 
  #19  
Old 08-19-2018, 07:20 AM
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Well I don't know how the sausage is made, but I do know I like them.
My actuator is in the front compartment and every thing seems to work very good.
I've had to make one panic stop. I was going between 30 and 40 mph and a car turned in front of me to go into a gas station and just STOPPED (I was going to T-bone him). It was really close and really bad. I can tell you everything came to a stop. Everything in the seat went in the floorboard. It was a very fast stop.
 
  #20  
Old 08-19-2018, 07:36 AM
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Bill, if you can swing it, I would strongly consider heading to MorRyde and have them do their IS conversion along with disc conversion at the same time. For me, the IS was more important than the discs. I had the Equaflex equalizers between my axles and I replaced one after finding it cracked and ready to fail after year two. When at MorRyde I went through the pile they took off and found two more with cracks starting. Now I have a very HD better riding suspension under my rig and discs to boot. It was a huge improvement all around so if you intend to keep your RV long term, I wouldn't hesitate. If you are interested and need any specifics, shoot me a PM. It was an great trip. MorRyde lets you stay in your RV overnight each night so no hotel needed. Then you can tour RV country all day. RV hall of fame. Stop into your brands plant for a factory tour. Etc.

PS: My trip to MorRyde starts on this page of my thread. Lots of other BS in there but some good pics of the R&R...

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-day-713.html
 
  #21  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl4Cat View Post
Bill, if you can swing it, I would strongly consider heading to MorRyde and have them do their IS conversion along with disc conversion at the same time. For me, the IS was more important than the discs. I had the Equaflex equalizers between my axles and I replaced one after finding it cracked and ready to fail after year two. When at MorRyde I went through the pile they took off and found two more with cracks starting. Now I have a very HD better riding suspension under my rig and discs to boot. It was a huge improvement all around so if you intend to keep your RV long term, I wouldn't hesitate. If you are interested and need any specifics, shoot me a PM. It was an great trip. MorRyde lets you stay in your RV overnight each night so no hotel needed. Then you can tour RV country all day. RV hall of fame. Stop into your brands plant for a factory tour. Etc.

PS: My trip to MorRyde starts on this page of my thread. Lots of other BS in there but some good pics of the R&R...

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-day-713.html
2x on this. If disc brakes are a serious consideration then I would definitely give this conversion a good looking over. I made some upgrades to our fiver's suspension to make it more durable and to stop uneven tire wear, but if I had it to do again I would like to try this IS setup.
 
  #22  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by '65Ford View Post


2x on this. If disc brakes are a serious consideration then I would definitely give this conversion a good looking over. I made some upgrades to our fiver's suspension to make it more durable and to stop uneven tire wear, but if I had it to do again I would like to try this IS setup.
I had done the same with some upgrading to the OE suspension. I had run MorRyde xfactor cross braces and upgraded to their HD shackles as well. However, when the equalizers started to fail, I just didn't trust the suspension under our rig. I think it is fine for a lot of buyers who don't do big mile trips. However, with the weight and miles we run, the OE components just aren't up to the task long term. Most folks do the IS to make their RV ride better. I, on the other hand, wasn't particularly concerned about that as no one is riding back there. Sure, it will be less jarring on your items inside and transfer less shock to the tow vehicle but I really did it to get components under it that I trust going down the road. Expensive but great piece of mind after seeing things crack under normal stress levels.
 
  #23  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:19 AM
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I used steel lines and just short hoses to the calipers and mounted my actuator up front. I also look at every actuator I could find on the market and compared times until I was so confused I stopped looking and started reading reviews and talking to friends that have disk brakes. I came up with the Dexter unit was the most reliable, others you mentioned at the time had multiple failures and the Dexter didn't, after 3 years and 23+K miles and many miles in the mountains and a few fast stops the system has worked flawless.

With that being said if you install them you are going to think they aren't working because they come on so smooth with the Ford controller and can't feel them unless you have it turned up to high but when you have to stop fast you will know they are back there. I had to change my braking habits from drum brakes because I was stopping to short when driving normally and that's a good thing

Something else to think about as it you need it, drum brakes draw current from the controller that will cause a voltage drop from the controller to the brakes, the electric over hydraulic just use the voltage from the controller with almost no current draw so no voltage drop. The actuator uses the trailers battery for power to drive the pump so you want it as close to the battery as possible because of voltage drop, also make sure the truck is charging the battery when connected. I can pull my break away switch and my pump is at full pressure in just a fraction of a second and when I use the brakes slider in the cab to check my brakes it's it's just as fast.

Denny
 
  #24  
Old 08-19-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
Thanks for all of the great advice. I reached out to performance trailer braking for a quote. They seem to sell the kit for several hundred more than the same system at etrailer, so I'll need to understand why. I'm looking forward to hearing from them.

The Hydrastar actuator that etrailer recommends claims a "fast" 0.784 seconds to 200 PSI, and 1.423 seconds to 900 PSI. That made me reluctant to go with hydraulic over disc. 1.423 seconds at 70 MPH is 159 feet! 0.784 seconds to a mild 200 PSI braking is still 88 feet before much braking happens at all. Sounded scary to me. Naturally, the current drum setup I have now is much worse, but if I'm shelling out over $2k, I want awesome brake performance.


Doing too much research, as usual for me, it looks like the Titan controller is much faster. If I mount it near my axles and use flex lines only where needed, it looks like it is even faster.
I went with the titan hydro unit from e trailer (nobody else could touch their price at the time) , and ordered kodiak disks from a local trailer supply. Kodiak does offer disk setups with hat style rotors, which i liked for two reasons; I expect that I'll be servicing the brakes due to rust from sitting all winter before i wear them out, making future servicing cheaper and faster(upfront cost was only a couple bucks). 2nd, since disks aren't commonly stocked parts at trailer and RV supply stores, the spare hub and bearings i ordered take up much less room in case of emergency. Far as lines go, i grabbed rubber ones on my order at e trailer, the metal lines i just grabbed a spool from the local auto parts store, since i have all the needed flaring tools.
Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
Thanks for the input. Let me clarify what I was referring to about the distances. I gave only the distance a vehicle moves at 70 MPH during the time the system builds pressure (assuming it isn't decelerating) to show how relevant those delays were with respect to highway speeds. I'm not suggesting one could make any estimates of stopping distance using this delay information alone.

The 0.784 delay to 200 PSI gives a fairly reasonable 88' distance (@ 70 MPH) before the trailer brakes start helping slow the rig much, as the speed won't have changes as much in that time. Even if the truck could slow the entire rig at 0.5g (rough, but reasonable estimate on decelleration with only 1/2 of the weight on the truck and no help from the trailer brakes) my 88' estimate is off by only 3 feet. 85' seems like quite a way to travel before the trailer brakes do much IMO. I think a Titan controller with mitigate this concern.
My titan controller doesn't seem nearly that long to engage, at least judging by when my head hits the windshield.
Originally Posted by Karl4Cat View Post
Bill, if you can swing it, I would strongly consider heading to MorRyde and have them do their IS conversion along with disc conversion at the same time. For me, the IS was more important than the discs. I had the Equaflex equalizers between my axles and I replaced one after finding it cracked and ready to fail after year two. When at MorRyde I went through the pile they took off and found two more with cracks starting. Now I have a very HD better riding suspension under my rig and discs to boot. It was a huge improvement all around so if you intend to keep your RV long term, I wouldn't hesitate. If you are interested and need any specifics, shoot me a PM. It was an great trip. MorRyde lets you stay in your RV overnight each night so no hotel needed. Then you can tour RV country all day. RV hall of fame. Stop into your brands plant for a factory tour. Etc.

PS: My trip to MorRyde starts on this page of my thread. Lots of other BS in there but some good pics of the R&R...

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...e-day-713.html
I've seen rodney's undercarriage, and it's a very stout and professional looking.

A few pics of my conversation.


Just the hub installed


Rotor and caliper mounted. Looking this reminded me of another reason i didn't order from performance trailer breaking. The black coated parts have a higher resistance to corrosion. Not available from them at the time.

 
  #25  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad149 View Post
I've seen rodney's undercarriage, and it's a very stout and professional looking.

Aw shucks, you make a guy blush Chad... Oh wait, you mean on my RV? LOL
 
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl4Cat View Post
Aw shucks, you make a guy blush Chad... Oh wait, you mean on my RV? LOL
Not sure what else i could have possibly implied....
 
  #27  
Old 08-20-2018, 10:33 PM
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I used the Titan Brakerite EOH actuator on my 5'r, they advertise 30Millisecond to 400 PSI and 80 MS to 1500 PSI. For all practical purposes I feel no delay when applying the brakes. When I converted to discs the much faster response time was the reason I went with the Titan's and I have not regretted my decision in the 3 years I have used them.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jetjockey99 View Post
I used the Titan Brakerite EOH actuator on my 5'r, they advertise 30Millisecond to 400 PSI and 80 MS to 1500 PSI. For all practical purposes I feel no delay when applying the brakes. When I converted to discs the much faster response time was the reason I went with the Titan's and I have not regretted my decision in the 3 years I have used them.
That's what I'm leaning towards as well. Now, I need to decide e-coating or Dacromet and Integrated-hub vs slipover (hat-type) rotor. On my cars, I've always liked having slipover rotors, so I'll likely go that route. I tow only 1800 miles a year or so, so the brakes should last many, many years before needing new pads. This may make the benefit of slipover rotors not that important.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
That's what I'm leaning towards as well. Now, I need to decide e-coating or Dacromet and Integrated-hub vs slipover (hat-type) rotor. On my cars, I've always liked having slipover rotors, so I'll likely go that route. I tow only 1800 miles a year or so, so the brakes should last many, many years before needing new pads. This may make the benefit of slipover rotors not that important.
Before you spend the extra money on coatings think about it, the brake pad surface will still get surface rust after the pads wear off the coating. And unless you back your trailer into water the rest of it will not rust unless you run it in the salt in the winter. Mine have been on for 3 years and my none coated rotors look just like they did new. As far as slip over rotors there are advantages but you have standard bearings so they will still have to be disassembled every few years to repack the bearings so the hub style may be better you. I have sealed bearings so the next time mine come off it will be for new bearings and my one piece came with new bearings so I will just buy new rotors.

Denny
 
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 2009kr View Post
I'd like some advice. My brakes never got close to locking at full power at any speed on my 15.5k fifth wheel. I had to do a hard for the first time in 8 years of towing, and was quite displeased in how the system performed. (This trailer is only 2 seasons old, 1800 miles). I figured with 12,920# on my twin 7k Dexter axles with 12x2 brakes, I should have sufficient braking, so something must be wrong. I cannot find a problem, so maybe I just need to splurge and get a set of discs.

I used my clamp on ammeter to see 2.9 to 3 amps on each magnet when pulling the truck controller (11.9 amps total). Dexter says I should have 12, so no issue there. I tested all 4 drum temps with my IR thermometer after towing, and they were all similarly hot. Finally, I pulled a drum, expecting to see a problem, but everything looked fine to me. Everything moved just fine.Thoughts?




I see one possible problem. The magnets should have four dots on them. I only see one. That could signify time for new magnets.
 

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