What would you do from here?
#16
07-15-2018, 08:44 AM
Hotshot
ICP sensors are pricey and I wouldn't buy one unless/until it was diagnosed as bad. When they go they usually have oil weeping through to the connectors. If you unplug the ICP the PCM will issue a default code and the truck will run, just not as well as it does with a good sensor in place. Having replaced injector O rings, some could have gotten damaged upon installation, it happens. You can test them by pressurizing the HPO rails with air and listening for the oil gurgling past them.
#17
07-15-2018, 09:15 AM
Postmaster
#18
07-15-2018, 10:57 AM
#19
07-15-2018, 11:15 AM
ICP sensors are pricey and I wouldn't buy one unless/until it was diagnosed as bad. When they go they usually have oil weeping through to the connectors. If you unplug the ICP the PCM will issue a default code and the truck will run, just not as well as it does with a good sensor in place. Having replaced injector O rings, some could have gotten damaged upon installation, it happens. You can test them by pressurizing the HPO rails with air and listening for the oil gurgling past them.
thats a a good idea. I hadn’t thought of that yet.
#20
07-15-2018, 11:22 AM
Before you go throwing parts at the problem(s) I would suggest searching Torque Pro FAQ and reading the info and getting torque pro or lite, then gather the numbers that the machine that is FTE brotherhood can crunch and possibly come up with a solution that will help
#23
07-18-2018, 01:36 PM
Alright, so I just got done with the CODY test. No leaks.
i had an old hose with me so I cut it and put a barb in it, I hooked it up to a pancake air compressor, it held 125 psi on both banks for a little over an hour on each side. When I took the hose off, it was still full of oil on both sides.
i still believe that my problem is inside the valve cover somewhere though. The truck doesn’t turn over very even, it hits a hard note on the starter consistently. When it does start, there is a considerable amount of blue smoke for a second, then it clears out. It never done that before all this no-start stuff started happening. And the hpop pressure is consistent when cranking. 580ish cold and 300ish when warm(no start)
i had an old hose with me so I cut it and put a barb in it, I hooked it up to a pancake air compressor, it held 125 psi on both banks for a little over an hour on each side. When I took the hose off, it was still full of oil on both sides.
i still believe that my problem is inside the valve cover somewhere though. The truck doesn’t turn over very even, it hits a hard note on the starter consistently. When it does start, there is a considerable amount of blue smoke for a second, then it clears out. It never done that before all this no-start stuff started happening. And the hpop pressure is consistent when cranking. 580ish cold and 300ish when warm(no start)
#24
07-18-2018, 03:41 PM
A grab bag of thoughts...
Just for grins, check your glow plug relay. Then pull the connectors to the valve covers and ohm out the individual glow plugs. Easy to ohm out the injectors at the same time.
I know you are reporting hard start when warm, thus the "just for grins" part. Assuming it does start easily when cold...
The "hard note on the starter" is tougher... Damaged ring gear? Loose bolt on the starter? Bent push rod?
Does the engine seem to crank slower when warm (bad starter)? It may not get enough RPM to start (you can pull RPM, IPR, ICP, etc. from the diag port). I would not replace the starter without data to support the cost of this part.
Just for grins, check your glow plug relay. Then pull the connectors to the valve covers and ohm out the individual glow plugs. Easy to ohm out the injectors at the same time.
I know you are reporting hard start when warm, thus the "just for grins" part. Assuming it does start easily when cold...
The "hard note on the starter" is tougher... Damaged ring gear? Loose bolt on the starter? Bent push rod?
Does the engine seem to crank slower when warm (bad starter)? It may not get enough RPM to start (you can pull RPM, IPR, ICP, etc. from the diag port). I would not replace the starter without data to support the cost of this part.
#25
07-18-2018, 04:57 PM
The glow plug relay ohmed at .02, all 8 injectors ohmed between .01 and .03. I haven’t checked the glow plugs themselves yet.
take a look at this and see what you think about the starter. This was after I shut it off and it had set for about 40 minutes. It didn’t start. But notice how the rpms pick up once the lpop starts to build
take a look at this and see what you think about the starter. This was after I shut it off and it had set for about 40 minutes. It didn’t start. But notice how the rpms pick up once the lpop starts to build
#26
07-18-2018, 07:37 PM
Your numbers don't make sense...
Injectors should ohm out at about 2 to 5 ohms each (don't have the spec in front of me, going a bit from memory). The injectors are pins 1, 2, 8, 9 on each valve cover connector.
The glow plugs should measure between 1/2 and 2 ohms each (pins 3, 4, 6, 7 on the same connectors).
To test the glow plug relay, measure volts and not ohms. Verify you have battery voltage on one of the big lugs (should be about 12.7V), then measure voltage across both big lugs when the relay is energized. It should be a small number.
ETA: Watched the video, and 3 quick observations. First, don't crank so long. About 20 seconds max and let the starter cool between attempts. Second, it seemed to take a while to get low oil pressure on the gauge, so check the dipstick. Third, that crank does not sound right. No specific help form me as to why beyond what I posted above, but maybe someone else has heard a crank sound like that before. I do see the low oil pressure on the gauge drop each time the starter seems to "stall" (for lack of a better word).
Injectors should ohm out at about 2 to 5 ohms each (don't have the spec in front of me, going a bit from memory). The injectors are pins 1, 2, 8, 9 on each valve cover connector.
The glow plugs should measure between 1/2 and 2 ohms each (pins 3, 4, 6, 7 on the same connectors).
To test the glow plug relay, measure volts and not ohms. Verify you have battery voltage on one of the big lugs (should be about 12.7V), then measure voltage across both big lugs when the relay is energized. It should be a small number.
ETA: Watched the video, and 3 quick observations. First, don't crank so long. About 20 seconds max and let the starter cool between attempts. Second, it seemed to take a while to get low oil pressure on the gauge, so check the dipstick. Third, that crank does not sound right. No specific help form me as to why beyond what I posted above, but maybe someone else has heard a crank sound like that before. I do see the low oil pressure on the gauge drop each time the starter seems to "stall" (for lack of a better word).
#27
07-18-2018, 08:11 PM
Your numbers don't make sense...
Injectors should ohm out at about 2 to 5 ohms each (don't have the spec in front of me, going a bit from memory). The injectors are pins 1, 2, 8, 9 on each valve cover connector.
The glow plugs should measure between 1/2 and 2 ohms each (pins 3, 4, 6, 7 on the same connectors).
To test the glow plug relay, measure volts and not ohms. Verify you have battery voltage on one of the big lugs (should be about 12.7V), then measure voltage across both big lugs when the relay is energized. It should be a small number.
ETA: Watched the video, and 3 quick observations. First, don't crank so long. About 20 seconds max and let the starter cool between attempts. Second, it seemed to take a while to get low oil pressure on the gauge, so check the dipstick. Third, that crank does not sound right. No specific help form me as to why beyond what I posted above, but maybe someone else has heard a crank sound like that before. I do see the low oil pressure on the gauge drop each time the starter seems to "stall" (for lack of a better word).
Injectors should ohm out at about 2 to 5 ohms each (don't have the spec in front of me, going a bit from memory). The injectors are pins 1, 2, 8, 9 on each valve cover connector.
The glow plugs should measure between 1/2 and 2 ohms each (pins 3, 4, 6, 7 on the same connectors).
To test the glow plug relay, measure volts and not ohms. Verify you have battery voltage on one of the big lugs (should be about 12.7V), then measure voltage across both big lugs when the relay is energized. It should be a small number.
ETA: Watched the video, and 3 quick observations. First, don't crank so long. About 20 seconds max and let the starter cool between attempts. Second, it seemed to take a while to get low oil pressure on the gauge, so check the dipstick. Third, that crank does not sound right. No specific help form me as to why beyond what I posted above, but maybe someone else has heard a crank sound like that before. I do see the low oil pressure on the gauge drop each time the starter seems to "stall" (for lack of a better word).
yeah, I would never turn it over that long normally, but ever since it started giving me trouble I bought another starter and a set of cables that I carry around with me, and that day I was having one of those “just ***** it” days. I caught it doing that so I got a quick video. About 30 minutes after that it did eventually start up. It still took about the same time though. The low pressure gauge spiked a few times, then the high pressure rose to about 450 and it fired.
The dipstick is about half, maybe a little under half over the add line. Oil was changed about 3 weeks ago. Motor craft oil and filter.
i need to mention too that the HPOP tank was full when I made the video, and It doesn’t drain down overnight. I actually haven’t caught it drained since the o-rings.
the sound of the crank started about the same time that the HPOP was put on, it was pretty steady before.
#28
02-07-2019, 01:43 PM
The final score
alright, I didn’t want to leave this post unfinished just Incase someone may have the same problem so here is the chain of events, and the eventual gruesome solution:
the problem started after I let it sit for about 6 months, when first drove it after being gone I noticed it was a little weak. I eventually found a crack in the inter cooler hose under the drivers side battery.
after that was fixed I could still tell that something was off. It would only build about 12 psi of boost, and after hauling a load for a while it would start missing and just running rough(but still drivable) sitting at a red light would cure it for a few minutes. That ended up being a kinked fuel line on top of the tank, but I wouldn’t find that out until about 2 months later. I was losing money and I had to get it to Nebraska so we made the rough running trip at about 50mph.
when I got to Nebraska a shop there told me the high pressure oil was a little weak, but everything else looked fine so I had them put a pump on it. They put a reman pump and IPR from o’Reilly’s on it.
then it started dumping oil by the gallons into the motor, about a gallon every 30 minutes would blow out the exhaust. I pulled the injectors and found 4 broke o’rings on them, when I put it back together I pulled the glow plugs and carefully cleaned out the cylinders, 5 full revolutions by hand, after that it stopped blowing oil for one whole day
then the high pressure gasket blew apart. Lost the whole oil pan full of oil. After that it got to where it wouldn’t start over 134 degrees of EOT. It was around this time I noticed it starting to develop a steady miss.
This was around the time of my last post here. I had a contribution test done and everything was fine, the miss kept getting worse. One of my friends had a good running 7.3 that he just put new injectors in, so I bought his used stock ones, that didn’t really change anything.
so after all that I bought a fuel pressure adapter and I tested it myself I found that when it was sitting idle it would hold 70psi, running without a load it would drop to around 40. I put a new pump on it, that didn’t really change anything so I put a blue spring in the bowl, that didn’t change anything either so I dropped the tank, the screens were clear and nothing else was wrong so I put it back together and once again nothing was wrong. So one day I took the line off the bowl and the pump and hooked them to shop air, the suction line on the back of the pump had some kick back so I cut it and put a rubber line from the tank to the frame rail, and that was it. It was running strong but it still had a bad miss and wouldn’t start warm.
it was time to leave Nebraska so I had to drive it home running on 5 cylinders. When I got there I got a compression tester and 3 cylinders were dead, I hooked those cylinders to shop air and it was blowing out of the intake. So the #3, 5 and 4 intake valves were bent. I took the heads off and found #5 had a scratch in the bore. So I pulled the pistons, and #5 had a broke secondary compression ring.
So here we are, 8G’s later it’s back together and running strong, it still wouldn’t start hot so I got an adrenaline pump and a motorcraft IPR, then that was solved.
what type of tuner would y’all recommend for a 450?
the problem started after I let it sit for about 6 months, when first drove it after being gone I noticed it was a little weak. I eventually found a crack in the inter cooler hose under the drivers side battery.
after that was fixed I could still tell that something was off. It would only build about 12 psi of boost, and after hauling a load for a while it would start missing and just running rough(but still drivable) sitting at a red light would cure it for a few minutes. That ended up being a kinked fuel line on top of the tank, but I wouldn’t find that out until about 2 months later. I was losing money and I had to get it to Nebraska so we made the rough running trip at about 50mph.
when I got to Nebraska a shop there told me the high pressure oil was a little weak, but everything else looked fine so I had them put a pump on it. They put a reman pump and IPR from o’Reilly’s on it.
then it started dumping oil by the gallons into the motor, about a gallon every 30 minutes would blow out the exhaust. I pulled the injectors and found 4 broke o’rings on them, when I put it back together I pulled the glow plugs and carefully cleaned out the cylinders, 5 full revolutions by hand, after that it stopped blowing oil for one whole day
then the high pressure gasket blew apart. Lost the whole oil pan full of oil. After that it got to where it wouldn’t start over 134 degrees of EOT. It was around this time I noticed it starting to develop a steady miss.
This was around the time of my last post here. I had a contribution test done and everything was fine, the miss kept getting worse. One of my friends had a good running 7.3 that he just put new injectors in, so I bought his used stock ones, that didn’t really change anything.
so after all that I bought a fuel pressure adapter and I tested it myself I found that when it was sitting idle it would hold 70psi, running without a load it would drop to around 40. I put a new pump on it, that didn’t really change anything so I put a blue spring in the bowl, that didn’t change anything either so I dropped the tank, the screens were clear and nothing else was wrong so I put it back together and once again nothing was wrong. So one day I took the line off the bowl and the pump and hooked them to shop air, the suction line on the back of the pump had some kick back so I cut it and put a rubber line from the tank to the frame rail, and that was it. It was running strong but it still had a bad miss and wouldn’t start warm.
it was time to leave Nebraska so I had to drive it home running on 5 cylinders. When I got there I got a compression tester and 3 cylinders were dead, I hooked those cylinders to shop air and it was blowing out of the intake. So the #3, 5 and 4 intake valves were bent. I took the heads off and found #5 had a scratch in the bore. So I pulled the pistons, and #5 had a broke secondary compression ring.
So here we are, 8G’s later it’s back together and running strong, it still wouldn’t start hot so I got an adrenaline pump and a motorcraft IPR, then that was solved.
what type of tuner would y’all recommend for a 450?
#29
02-08-2019, 11:19 AM
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