89 F150 Stopped Running just Crossing the Street...
#1
05-27-2018, 12:27 AM
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89 F150 Stopped Running just Crossing the Street...
It's a Lariat 4x4, but really It's an 89' F150 w/ a Straight Six...
Dude called me over to help w/ a 'new to him' pickup truck: he said the following-
"I replaced the Alternator and the dashboard Alt Meter doesn't show a charging condition so..."
Preconditions;
- Previous owner might have, at some time long ago, had a motor rebuild/replacement done. (huh)
- Truck has a Dual Gas Tank system, complete w/ potentially problematic inter-tank valve system that, when it goes wrong, will overfill one tank with the contents of the other... PS- Tank One (lower part of dash switch depressed) shows about a 1/4 tank, the Second Tank (upper part of dash switched pushed in) shows 'more than full'.
- In General, this is a Thirty year old motor vehicle.
Today it was parked across the street in the neighbor's driveway, he started it up, it stalled (it was cold we assumed) restarted mid-street and drove under it's own power into his driveway, whereupon it quit and failed to restart.
Diagnosis to this point finds:
- the Fuel pump relay is viable and both getting 12v+ as well as reacting to the switched trigger signal from the Ign Key Switch.
(There are TWO relays in the area under the Brake M/C, one is Green &the other is Brown. BOTH work OK & are getting both constant 12V and a triggered signal from the Ign Switch).
- System has a 'Siphon' pump in each tank and a Main Pump to charge the Fuel Rail w/ a 30 to 45PSI pressure; true & current pressure as yet unknown but the Voltage at the pump reads a nominal 7.5V on the hand-held analog meter. Long-***'d wire shunt, directly from the Battery, got the Main Pump to start spinning, but... Truck still wont start. Schrader Valve on the back of the back of the Fuel Rail shows pressurized gas in the rail following starting attempts.
- Spark plugs are getting a robust spark, even if it's a healthy orange and not an optimal Blue Azure, Chekhov like plasma...
We added about an additional 5G of fresh gas to the existing fresh gas in the front tank, poured some down the throat of the Intake Manifold and were able to get the motor to catch and run... Until the gas we pored in the intake ran out.
In a nutshell; Truck got worse, driving from one side of the street to the other. Main Fuel pump doesn't seem to be getting enough volts/amps, but even when 'juiced' the truck wouldn't start.
Sunday is back in the fray..
Dude called me over to help w/ a 'new to him' pickup truck: he said the following-
"I replaced the Alternator and the dashboard Alt Meter doesn't show a charging condition so..."
Preconditions;
- Previous owner might have, at some time long ago, had a motor rebuild/replacement done. (huh)
- Truck has a Dual Gas Tank system, complete w/ potentially problematic inter-tank valve system that, when it goes wrong, will overfill one tank with the contents of the other... PS- Tank One (lower part of dash switch depressed) shows about a 1/4 tank, the Second Tank (upper part of dash switched pushed in) shows 'more than full'.
- In General, this is a Thirty year old motor vehicle.
Today it was parked across the street in the neighbor's driveway, he started it up, it stalled (it was cold we assumed) restarted mid-street and drove under it's own power into his driveway, whereupon it quit and failed to restart.
Diagnosis to this point finds:
- the Fuel pump relay is viable and both getting 12v+ as well as reacting to the switched trigger signal from the Ign Key Switch.
(There are TWO relays in the area under the Brake M/C, one is Green &the other is Brown. BOTH work OK & are getting both constant 12V and a triggered signal from the Ign Switch).
- System has a 'Siphon' pump in each tank and a Main Pump to charge the Fuel Rail w/ a 30 to 45PSI pressure; true & current pressure as yet unknown but the Voltage at the pump reads a nominal 7.5V on the hand-held analog meter. Long-***'d wire shunt, directly from the Battery, got the Main Pump to start spinning, but... Truck still wont start. Schrader Valve on the back of the back of the Fuel Rail shows pressurized gas in the rail following starting attempts.
- Spark plugs are getting a robust spark, even if it's a healthy orange and not an optimal Blue Azure, Chekhov like plasma...
We added about an additional 5G of fresh gas to the existing fresh gas in the front tank, poured some down the throat of the Intake Manifold and were able to get the motor to catch and run... Until the gas we pored in the intake ran out.
In a nutshell; Truck got worse, driving from one side of the street to the other. Main Fuel pump doesn't seem to be getting enough volts/amps, but even when 'juiced' the truck wouldn't start.
Sunday is back in the fray..
#2
05-27-2018, 12:59 AM
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PS- I was under the driver's side foot well and found a Ground connection, near the Fuse Panel, with three black wires.
Two were medium sized, the third, which was also bolted to the same place the others were, was lighter gauge and broken/cut and disconnected.
The wire was about 6 to 8" long, but I could not see another place it had been cut from.
Tomorrow I'm going to try and jumper the Fuel pumps via the test port & be sure I actually know if the Inertial Switch is in the Driver's or Paasenger's foot well. (I thought I'd ID'd it in the driver's today, but after reading online stuff, I'm not so sure any more...)
Two were medium sized, the third, which was also bolted to the same place the others were, was lighter gauge and broken/cut and disconnected.
The wire was about 6 to 8" long, but I could not see another place it had been cut from.
Tomorrow I'm going to try and jumper the Fuel pumps via the test port & be sure I actually know if the Inertial Switch is in the Driver's or Paasenger's foot well. (I thought I'd ID'd it in the driver's today, but after reading online stuff, I'm not so sure any more...)
#3
05-29-2018, 07:24 PM
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Quick add on; I was running my Volt/Ohm Meter around different points in the Engine Bay and found, in the ODBI Test Port, found:
<edit> Pin numbers listed below where likely pins 3 & 4. More info later on in this same thread.
W/ the Ign OFF:
- Pin#(player to be added later #1) had 0V
- Pin#(player to be added later #2) had 7.5V
w/ the Ign ON:
- Pin#(player to be added later #1) had 7.5V
- Pin#(player to be added later #2) had 12V
I have a general What the Frack response to this, but I'm only just getting my hands on anything like a Haynes Repair Manual & while I see lots of similar situations online ("Truck Won't Run") what I'm not finding, yet, is the defensive 'Been There, Knock It Out' step by step I'm looking for.
Seems all the ol' hands are out eating crickets casue this is a 'same ol', same ol' situation. But it's all new to me...
<edit> Pin numbers listed below where likely pins 3 & 4. More info later on in this same thread.
W/ the Ign OFF:
- Pin#(player to be added later #1) had 0V
- Pin#(player to be added later #2) had 7.5V
w/ the Ign ON:
- Pin#(player to be added later #1) had 7.5V
- Pin#(player to be added later #2) had 12V
I have a general What the Frack response to this, but I'm only just getting my hands on anything like a Haynes Repair Manual & while I see lots of similar situations online ("Truck Won't Run") what I'm not finding, yet, is the defensive 'Been There, Knock It Out' step by step I'm looking for.
Seems all the ol' hands are out eating crickets casue this is a 'same ol', same ol' situation. But it's all new to me...
#4
05-29-2018, 07:49 PM
Cargo Master
#5
05-30-2018, 12:06 AM
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Good call. And thx. I'm a bit frustrated by having a very deep background in general automotive, esp 70s/80s era VWs (both air & water cooled) and lately GMC trucks, but almost no hands on w/ Ford's way of doing things. Yes, I'm a noob, but I don't care who knows it.
Added to that is limited time to work on this beastie, so far (I hope to have a full few days coming up...) and the lack of at least a Haynes manual to read up on things, well- I'm banging my head a bit.
Added to that is limited time to work on this beastie, so far (I hope to have a full few days coming up...) and the lack of at least a Haynes manual to read up on things, well- I'm banging my head a bit.
#7
06-06-2018, 11:42 PM
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OK- Update: Started renewing the Chassis Grounds w/ Contact Cleaner, Stainless Steel Brush & Vaseline to cover bare metal against future corrosion.
Ground Strap found connected by the Battery, Pass. Side; renewed.
Ground Strap @ Driver's Side near Hood Hinge; renewed.
Ground Strap found clipped between the Frame & the Bed, renewed.
Ground Strap from Head to Firewall, Pass Side, previously found loose & (re)tightened then (but- fergot to go back and _renew_ it now...)
Set of Wire Loom 'joins''''' opened up and found to be 'clean & oily'; set of four and a set of three, only one looked dry inside and was cleaned and relubed. The others had what looked like a white lithium grease in there, left them alone and they were reconnected.
Volt Meter used to find a good 12.5V serving both the Brown & the Green Relays under the hood; Brown is EEC Power Relay. It sends power to the EEC, but also the Fuel Injectors, the Fuel Pump Relay & some emissions related solenoids (according to Home)
At first we had a good 12v going in, and a Good 12V coming from the Ign Switch to service that Relay. The Ground Wire coming from the Relay to Chassis Ground read 2 Ohms. The trouble was the switched Output read as 5 volts. (insert frowny-face emojicon here)
We had pulled the main computer and looked over the circuit board but it apperaed pristine insed; no discoloration or signs of overheating/ burnt stuff.
Pulled the Fuse Box in the cab abd looked over the back to see if the 'what does this thin Ground Wire go to?' could be put back were it came from, no signs of foul play behind the Fuse Box either.
OK, here's where the fun begins: Ran a wire from the Battery 12V post to the Red output of the Brown (EEC) Relay to get a true 12V, poured a few tablespoons of gas down the intake and cranked the Starter over... it almost seemed to want to catch, once the starter gas had run dry.
What I mean is it sounded very much more encouraging during the cranking than the previous times.
Pulled that supplemental wire and started looking at Voltage at the Main Pump, down stream fro the two (Green & Brown) Relays. Being thorough, tested the Relays Ins & Outs, found we now seemed to have a good 12V coming Out of both Brown & Green Relays. Before it had been a measly 5V, now we find 12V being sent downstream.
Got up under the Truck and put the meter to the two main leads (Red & Black) running to the High Pressure Pump and there is No Voltage here.
Tested the Inertial Switch; low (5V) showing here.
Checked Main Pump wire loom 'join' located forward of the Pump & i the chassis frame; of the four pins, one was pushed back and likely not making good, if any contact with the socket on the other side. Color of the wire is Yellow w/ a Green Stripe. Tried to push it back al the way in, unsuccessful. Tried pulling it from the 'inside' w/ needle-nose, wont 'click' into place.
Other than the pesky pin, the inside of that plug/socket looked clean and lubed up. no corrosion present.
Owner sourced a new Relay tonight and were going to try again tomorrow, but just in case things wern't weird enough- when the Ign Switch is ON, the Dual Tank switch seems to make no difference in terms of the Fuel Gauge. It Used To, but now it always pegs the needle way past full. On both tanks.
I took some pix, I'm looking to upload them soon.
Ground Strap found connected by the Battery, Pass. Side; renewed.
Ground Strap @ Driver's Side near Hood Hinge; renewed.
Ground Strap found clipped between the Frame & the Bed, renewed.
Ground Strap from Head to Firewall, Pass Side, previously found loose & (re)tightened then (but- fergot to go back and _renew_ it now...)
Set of Wire Loom 'joins''''' opened up and found to be 'clean & oily'; set of four and a set of three, only one looked dry inside and was cleaned and relubed. The others had what looked like a white lithium grease in there, left them alone and they were reconnected.
Volt Meter used to find a good 12.5V serving both the Brown & the Green Relays under the hood; Brown is EEC Power Relay. It sends power to the EEC, but also the Fuel Injectors, the Fuel Pump Relay & some emissions related solenoids (according to Home)
At first we had a good 12v going in, and a Good 12V coming from the Ign Switch to service that Relay. The Ground Wire coming from the Relay to Chassis Ground read 2 Ohms. The trouble was the switched Output read as 5 volts. (insert frowny-face emojicon here)
We had pulled the main computer and looked over the circuit board but it apperaed pristine insed; no discoloration or signs of overheating/ burnt stuff.
Pulled the Fuse Box in the cab abd looked over the back to see if the 'what does this thin Ground Wire go to?' could be put back were it came from, no signs of foul play behind the Fuse Box either.
OK, here's where the fun begins: Ran a wire from the Battery 12V post to the Red output of the Brown (EEC) Relay to get a true 12V, poured a few tablespoons of gas down the intake and cranked the Starter over... it almost seemed to want to catch, once the starter gas had run dry.
What I mean is it sounded very much more encouraging during the cranking than the previous times.
Pulled that supplemental wire and started looking at Voltage at the Main Pump, down stream fro the two (Green & Brown) Relays. Being thorough, tested the Relays Ins & Outs, found we now seemed to have a good 12V coming Out of both Brown & Green Relays. Before it had been a measly 5V, now we find 12V being sent downstream.
Got up under the Truck and put the meter to the two main leads (Red & Black) running to the High Pressure Pump and there is No Voltage here.
Tested the Inertial Switch; low (5V) showing here.
Checked Main Pump wire loom 'join' located forward of the Pump & i the chassis frame; of the four pins, one was pushed back and likely not making good, if any contact with the socket on the other side. Color of the wire is Yellow w/ a Green Stripe. Tried to push it back al the way in, unsuccessful. Tried pulling it from the 'inside' w/ needle-nose, wont 'click' into place.
Other than the pesky pin, the inside of that plug/socket looked clean and lubed up. no corrosion present.
Owner sourced a new Relay tonight and were going to try again tomorrow, but just in case things wern't weird enough- when the Ign Switch is ON, the Dual Tank switch seems to make no difference in terms of the Fuel Gauge. It Used To, but now it always pegs the needle way past full. On both tanks.
I took some pix, I'm looking to upload them soon.
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#8
06-07-2018, 10:30 AM
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Broken Ground Wire in Footwell. (Of the three black wires, two are medium sized, this broken one is very thin...)
Test Port
1 - 2
3 - 4 - 5 - 6
edit- The former pic here was thought to be: "Main Pump Loom Connector" w/ one pin 'recessed back in too far' (12 o'clock position.) Turns out it was a four connector wire loom that went to something that might have been hydraulic in nature, but not related to the Fuel System... so,
< misleading image redacted >
Main Pump Loom ('sunken pin' wire is Yellow w/ green stripe)
Test Port
1 - 2
3 - 4 - 5 - 6
edit- The former pic here was thought to be: "Main Pump Loom Connector" w/ one pin 'recessed back in too far' (12 o'clock position.) Turns out it was a four connector wire loom that went to something that might have been hydraulic in nature, but not related to the Fuel System... so,
< misleading image redacted >
Main Pump Loom ('sunken pin' wire is Yellow w/ green stripe)
#9
06-07-2018, 11:27 PM
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OK, Update Time:
Refurbed Existing Ground Straps & Added a few New Ones:
- Rear of Engine Bay/Firewall Wiper Motor to Block refurb'd,
added- Firewall to existing Grounding Point near Driver's Hood Hinge.
- Battery Neg Post to Starter Bolt; Added Braided Strap to Front Ground Bolt, Passenger's Side, between Battery and Headlight.
(Prev Owner had chopped the small ground wire from there to the Neg Post and crimped in an extension...).
- Cleaned and Refurb'd (previously loose, but tightened) OEM Strap from (1) Head Bolt to Firewall & from there to (2) Hood.
- Found sharp voltage drop across loom between Eng. Bay and Cab; Inertial Safety Switch (and devices it served) unable to get any better than 5V.
- Replaced 'Brown' EEC Relay, looked to be Original (1989).
Output from first Relay (Brown) let Second Relay (Green) provide a 12v output, but... see above item. With New 1st Relay, Second Relay now passing 12V.
- Fabricated a temp & Fused, wire from the Red 12V Output of the 'Green' Relay, through the firewall and on to the Pink w/ black Inertial Switch Wire, powering the:
- Dash Dual Tank Switch,
- the Main Fuel Pump/In-tank Pump(s) &
- the Fuel Gauge.
Still not done yet as the Temp Wire is not a Solution, AND I'm really back to square one-
the original reason I came over to see this truck in the first place was a Poor Charging Condition.
Well, we are back at Square One now with a Truck that does indeed run, but only off the Battery.
and that's a tail for a different thread...
Refurbed Existing Ground Straps & Added a few New Ones:
- Rear of Engine Bay/Firewall Wiper Motor to Block refurb'd,
added- Firewall to existing Grounding Point near Driver's Hood Hinge.
- Battery Neg Post to Starter Bolt; Added Braided Strap to Front Ground Bolt, Passenger's Side, between Battery and Headlight.
(Prev Owner had chopped the small ground wire from there to the Neg Post and crimped in an extension...).
- Cleaned and Refurb'd (previously loose, but tightened) OEM Strap from (1) Head Bolt to Firewall & from there to (2) Hood.
- Found sharp voltage drop across loom between Eng. Bay and Cab; Inertial Safety Switch (and devices it served) unable to get any better than 5V.
- Replaced 'Brown' EEC Relay, looked to be Original (1989).
Output from first Relay (Brown) let Second Relay (Green) provide a 12v output, but... see above item. With New 1st Relay, Second Relay now passing 12V.
- Fabricated a temp & Fused, wire from the Red 12V Output of the 'Green' Relay, through the firewall and on to the Pink w/ black Inertial Switch Wire, powering the:
- Dash Dual Tank Switch,
- the Main Fuel Pump/In-tank Pump(s) &
- the Fuel Gauge.
Still not done yet as the Temp Wire is not a Solution, AND I'm really back to square one-
the original reason I came over to see this truck in the first place was a Poor Charging Condition.
Well, we are back at Square One now with a Truck that does indeed run, but only off the Battery.
and that's a tail for a different thread...
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