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Would you run 18 year old oil?

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  #46  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:48 PM
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Just what I figured. In this day and age of expiration dates on everything it seems people get the screwed up notion that old is bad. Heck if that was true, anything said by most of us older guys on here would not be worth its weight in salt and we all know that is not true.

Thanks for proving old does not mean bad.
 
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:51 PM
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Also, if nothing else that oil was manufactured when our trucks were new. If it was the right stuff then it fits right in.
 
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  #48  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:30 PM
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I love this one. Oil sits in the ground for millions of years now all of a sudden has a shelf life lol. Only thing I could think may be an issue is if you found oil without any additives. IE very very old stuff. This engine was designed way way back before that oil was made.
 
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:10 PM
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I have been running old oil for years that was sealed, never had an issue. I have rotella thats about 10 years old that ive been working through. Good to know the verdict!
 
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  #50  
Old 06-15-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by hotrodfeguy View Post
I love this one. Oil sits in the ground for millions of years now all of a sudden has a shelf life lol.
Milk sits in a cow out in the sun for quite some time without issues and I'll bet you're one of those crackpots that insists on it being refrigerated and tossed out if it sits a couple weeks. Gasoline comes from that same old crude oil that motor oil comes from so by your theory it too must be ok to sit around forever....but we know it's not.

Once crude oil is pulled from the ground, broken down (refined), modified, then put into containers it can't be compared to the stuff that was under ground for millions of years. Motor oil will go through changes when sitting around. I think the oil being discussed in this thread was in buckets which stand a much better chance of long term survival than if it were in plastic quart jugs. I didn't take that difference into consideration when I first read and responded about it.
 
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  #51  
Old 06-15-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by '88 E-350 View Post
Milk sits in a cow out in the sun for quite some time without issues and I'll bet you're one of those crackpots that insists on it being refrigerated and tossed out if it sits a couple weeks. Gasoline comes from that same old crude oil that motor oil comes from so by your theory it too must be ok to sit around forever....but we know it's not.

Once crude oil is pulled from the ground, broken down (refined), modified, then put into containers it can't be compared to the stuff that was under ground for millions of years. Motor oil will go through changes when sitting around. I think the oil being discussed in this thread was in buckets which stand a much better chance of long term survival than if it were in plastic quart jugs. I didn't take that difference into consideration when I first read and responded about it.
You didn't?

Originally Posted by '88 E-350 View Post
I'll bet it's junk. I would use it as fuel, but not motor oil. I'll be shocked if the test comes back good. I've seen oil only a year or so old have sediment at the bottom of the bottle, the sediment is supposedly good stuff that has separated out. I always wondered if the sediment might be 'junk' in the oil. I'll bet the bottom of that bucket has a nice dark layer of stuff, give it a check.
How are additives introduced into base oils?

Noria Corporation, a consulting company that specializes in helping industries improve machine reliability through best practice lubrication and oil analysis, suggests that additives are dissolved into the base oil with a little heat and mixing during the blending process.

What is the environment like inside the crankcase of an engine? (heat and mixing from the reciprocating and rotating crank and connecting rod assembly)
 
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  #52  
Old 06-15-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Y2KW57 View Post
You didn't?

No, I didn't take into consideration the difference between a bucket and a quart bottle when it comes to degradation of the oil. The qt. bottles are much more permeable and have a much higher surface area to volume ratio. Oil in a qt. bottle is going to become oxidized, allowed to evaporate, have sharper temperature swings, etc. All things bad for long term storage.

I've never had a quart bottle more than a couple years old or an opened and part used bucket of oil that didn't exhibit some obvious changes, but never had a sealed bucket of old oil to compare to. It's possible that the air exposure is what leads to the sediment and other changes I've seen & smelled in old oils. Once a bucket is opened, and more so once it starts getting dispensed, it's possible that degradation will advance more quickly in what's left in the bucket.
 
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  #53  
Old 06-15-2018, 04:31 PM
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I would tend to believe that motor oil in plastic quart bottles with the foil seal should last quite well. It might be interesting however to see what the oil poured out of the old cardboard containers, with the steel ends looks like. Any of that is going to be well over 30 years old at this point, it was sometime in the 1980s when those disappeared entirely.

It took some doing, but I finally forced myself to throw away the metal push spout pourer deal that everybody used to use with that style oil can.
 
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  #54  
Old 06-15-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedster9 View Post
It took some doing, but I finally forced myself to throw away the metal push spout pourer deal that everybody used to use with that style oil can.
Oh c'mon, you're supposed to hang that on the garage wall with all of the other obsolete tools you no longer need or even remember how to use or inherited from your Dad or Grandpop!
 
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  #55  
Old 06-15-2018, 05:28 PM
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Yeah... i know. Decided that if it ain't usable, out it goes. Got plenty of hand me down tools, and I use 'em, but cardboard oil cans ain't coming back. Apparently. I waited!
 
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  #56  
Old 06-15-2018, 06:11 PM
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I'd still have an entire case of Shell oil in cardboard canisters, if the case hadn't gotten buried underneath an ever growing pile of other junk whose aggregate weight exceeded the crush capacity of the box and the card board cans within it, to be discovered by the pool of oil that eventually seeped out from underneath the pile (in an old wood barn that has since been torn down). Had I known then that this case could be sold for a 1,000 percent profit on ebay, I'd have been more careful about what and where I stacked things. Heck, I might have gotten a few more cases. Instead, I remember how delighted I was back in 1981 when Pennzoil first appeared in those plastic bottles, saving me from losing my grip around a slippery cylinder of cardboard when trying to one hand it. Ah, the good ol days.

88 E350 makes a good point about the permeability of plastic containers, regardless of whether or not he lost the bet fair and square about the lab test results.

Of all the many types of plastic that exist, the most commonly used plastics for making quart and gallon sized bottles to contain liquids are:
  • HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) What all brands of gallon sized oil containers that I have are made of, as well as all the 5 gallon plastic buckets
  • PET (Polyethylene Terephthalate) Who the heck comes up with a name like terephthalate? A chemist with a lisp?
  • PLA (Polyactide) Imagine if the internet existed in the 70's... every post with the acronym PLA would be scrutinized by the NSA, including this one!
  • PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) People's Vindication Coalition just might slip under the NSA's search algorithm, for anyone seeking to adopt plastic names.
  • PP (PolyPropylene) Or when a chemist works in the lab too long without a bio break
  • PS (PolyStyrene) Clearly, an afterthought.
According to Alpha Packaging, of the typical plastics that fluid containers are made of on the short list above, HDPE has the second highest Oxygen Transmission Rate (OTR) and Carbon Dioxide Transmission Rate (COTR), as measured in ((cm^3 - mil/m^2) /24 hr period). This is a scientific definition of the permeability of the plastic, which by extrapolation might be predictive of the exposure of the oil in the container to atmospheric gasses such as oxygen... ergo, the oxidation that 88E350 was talking about. OTR and COTR are measures of the amount of these gasses that pass through a flat sheet of the plastic over the given period in a test cell. The higher the number, the less resistant the material is to gas permeation. So let's compare HDPE to the next most common plastic bottle we typically see on store shelves... PET.

The OTR of HDPE is 4,000.
The OTR of PET is 75.

The COTR of HDPE is 18,000.
The COTR of PET is 540.

Clearly, PET is far and away less likely to permit gasses, like oxygen, to permeate through the walls of a container, than the comparatively porous HDPE. Yet all of the oil bottles in my possession, regardless of year, vintage, type of oil, or brand, are made with HDPE. And every five gallon bucket I own, from the Homer Orange to the Lowe's Blue, to the Pep Boys Red, to the paint store white... all made from HDPE.

Ok, so let's assume that oil is sold and shipped in a virtual colander, with holes small enough to keep the oil contained, but large enough, in the thousands, compared to in the tens, to permit the oil to oxidize more and more and more every 24 hours. And with that assumption, let's look at what might happen to oil that has become oxidized.

According to John Evans B.Sc., when oil is oxidized (especially in elevated temperatures), the elements in the base stock reacts with the oxygen to form peroxides. Peroxides then form free radicals, and the free radicals and peroxide react with each other to form acids. Hold that thought on acids for just a second.

Also according to Evans, during combustion, other trace elements in the oil like sulfur become oxidized to form sulfur oxides, which react with water vapor (another byproduct of combustion) to form sulphuric acids.

Now the working oil is awash in acids, which are not good for the engine nor the oil. To prevent this, oils are blended with sacrificial additives that neutralize these acids. Being sacrificial, once these additives have contacted and neutralized the acids present, they cannot be regenerated to neutralize newer formed acids from subsequent combustion events or continued oxidation exposure. The neutralization additives are typically over-based sulfonates of calcium or magnesium.

Wait... magnesium?

Let's scroll back and take a closer look at z71Freakify's oil analysis result from Blackstone labs. On the left hand column is the sample of the 18 year old oil. The adjacent column in the center is meaningless for purposes of analyzing this oil, because "unit location" averages refer to the particular unit or engine that the oil is used in, for purposes of tracking changes over the monitoring life of that particular unit from sample to sample. But the right hand most column is rather interesting to compare to the left hand most column, because the right hand column denotes universal averages. So let's look at one of the base additives used to neutralize acids from oxidation... magnesium.

In the 18 year old oil sample, we see that Magnesium was found to be 14 ppm. Yet the universal average for Magnesium is 392 ppm.

Did we find a smoking gun?

Did oxygen (and nitrogen, an even more plentiful constituent gas in our atmosphere, that can generate nitrogen based acids in the oil) permeate through the HDPE walls of that 5 gallon bucket for 6,570 measurement periods (the number of 24 hr days in 18 years), generating acids little by little, day in and day out, that were dutifully neutralized by the sacrificial additive package in the oil, and once they discharged their one time only role in neutralizing the acid, were thus depleted, leaving very little magnesium remaining in the sample oil (at 14 ppm) compared to universal average oil (at 392 ppm)?

No.

Turns out, unlike other oil companies, Shell doesn't use magnesium as an acid neutralizer in their Rotella dino oil. A sample of brand new Rotella T dino taken in 2013 and tested by an independent lab showed less than 9 ppm Magnesium. On the other hand, sample of brand new Rotella T6 taken in 2014 and tested by the same lab found Magnesium to be 1,176 ppm.

I say all this to say, no conclusion can be easily drawn from a point or two here and there. Even though each point can be valid, the conclusion drawn between them can be invalid. There could be yet another point through which the line must be drawn first, in order to define the most accurate shape.
 
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  #57  
Old 06-16-2018, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tedster9 View Post
I would tend to believe that motor oil in plastic quart bottles with the foil seal should last quite well. It might be interesting however to see what the oil poured out of the old cardboard containers, with the steel ends looks like. Any of that is going to be well over 30 years old at this point, it was sometime in the 1980s when those disappeared entirely.

It took some doing, but I finally forced myself to throw away the metal push spout pourer deal that everybody used to use with that style oil can.
I think the foil seal won't help much, the problem I see with the plastic bottles is that the plastic itself is permeable. Air will pass through the plastic and act on the oil. Oil will also pass through the plastic too, it just takes longer. I've seen many old oil bottles that were 'sweating out' the oil inside. They're often sticky and if the bottle is light in color it'll have an obvious color change from the oil leaching through it.

I got a few of the old cardboard cans of oil recently and there was less residue on the bottom than the much newer oils in plastic bottles I got at the same time. It could be because of the different additives in the newer vs. older oils, but I think the permeability of the plastic vs. the cardboard/metal containers is a bigger factor. The plastic bottles all had signs of oil seepage through the plastic and the older cans were bone dry. The cardboard had a thin metal lining inside that probably made them more resistant to permeation than plastic.

I have an old metal spout on top of my toolbox for no good reason. I probably should toss it out, but probably won't any time soon.
 
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Old 06-16-2018, 02:00 AM
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Y2KW57: I did loose the bet.

I had no idea the buckets and smaller bottles were made of the same stuff because they act so differently. I guess it's just the thickness difference that makes the buckets not show signs of permeation, I assumed they were made of a different type plastic.

On a side note; whatever plastic is used for soda bottles holds up to gasoline very well, they've become my go-to containers for small quantities. The caps are hit & miss, gotta use the ones that don't have a separate seal so Coke brand is out and it's all about the Pepsi for gas storage.
 
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by '88 E-350
On a side note; whatever plastic is used for soda bottles holds up to gasoline very well, they've become my go-to containers for small quantities.
In certain poorer countries, places where scooters and mopeds prevail, often see roadside gasoline stations usually run by little kids, just like a lemonaid stand here might be, except instead they have 2 liter and 20 oz bottles of gas stacked like cordwood.

I use milk jugs to store waste oil for recycling after emptying the drain pain. Well I used to anyway. The manufacturers changed something, they don't seem durable enough anymore. Also used them to mix up turf chemical concentrate, and they tend to fail there too now for some reason. Can't trust them anymore, except to leak.
 
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedster9 View Post
Yeah... i know. Decided that if it ain't usable, out it goes. Got plenty of hand me down tools, and I use 'em, but cardboard oil cans ain't coming back. Apparently. I waited!
I use my old one in my beer cans. Helps the flow really well.
 
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