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1999 4.2 LATE TIMING

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  #1  
Old 05-05-2018, 03:23 PM
cbizzme
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1999 4.2 LATE TIMING

It does not seem as though rotating the cam sync can even be done without puling it up out of the bore. It does not seem as though base timing can be changed by loosening the hold down bolt and rotating, agreed?

What can cause late timing with one of the engines? I changed the plugs and wires, had anti-seize snuff out the spark. I removed all it and went from no start or even close, to starts fine and idles fine. It is down on power and sluggish stumbles a bit on tip in throttle response. Exhaust logs glow read under moderate load. The cats have about 1000 miles on them, don't see how they could be clogged. It drives 70 down the road, does not sputter but drives like timing is 5-10 degrees late. I have driven a car with clogged cat and this does not remind me of it.

Never had a P0401 before the spark plug ground issue even with minimal anti-seize. Now I have one. So fix one problem and another seems to show right behind it. Intake manifold was professionally cleaned. Could this have irritated something in the EGR system giving me the insufficient flow code?

Any techs out there know what can cause late timing? How much out does timing need to be to throw a code or is it not set up to throw a code on timing alone?
 
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:31 AM
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You seem to have come to a conclusion that the timing is off. But Iíve read this and your other post. And you donít actually know if the timing is late or not.

Your ignition timing is computer controlled and cannot be adjusted nor checked. (Assuming you have COPs and no wires).

You have some interesting symptoms (glowing exhaust manifolds, p0401), so start there and go a step at a time.

I dont know anything about the EGR system (except what I mentioned in your other thread), and I donít know what would cause red hot exhaust manifolds- so I canít offer help.


Just ďstick to the facts maíamĒ and present your problems with specific symptoms, not hypothetical solutions. And keep your posts more concise (I.e. - shorter) and you will see people jumping in to help you.

I highly recommend you retitle this thread and just start over. People on here with lots of experience will jump in and help.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:00 AM
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Away for a while and getting back to it.

It's late timing or random misfires so random the engine is completely smooth running, which I find very unlikely if you think about it logically. Rich mixtures don't cause this and neither do lean, because they would be lean enough to cause obvious misfires which would not allow as smooth running as I have. For now I am going with my most likely culprit....timing.

My strengths are theory...weakness is this particular vehicle.

Where does this engine receive its timing reference(s)? Can harmonic balancer slip or alteration of some sort throw off a reference from down there, toothed wheel or something? Or is timing reference just from the 'cam synchronizer'?

What can the ECM get input from that can command it to retard timing? I have not determined if it's only pulling timing with the P0401 code in play. ie CEL light on for which that is the only code I am getting.

Will insufficient flow code cause ECM to pull timing out at heavier loads where the EGR may not be working as it should to dilute the mixture? Where would this signal come from? EGR reference box or the regulator? I am referring to the two devices other than the EGR valve itself, that are wired into the system. I would think there would be a code for those two devices malfunctioning, but nothing would surprise me to this point.

Any codes for this thing for bad knock sensor? I know if everything is working correctly knock sensor sensing knock can pull timing.

Its at the point where I am close to having to start replacing the most likely parts. I will probably pull the EGR tube at the EGR just to see what happens but I cant see it being related to insufficient flow unless it somehow got clogged itself which seems pretty unlikely.

Heat gun is showing even warmed up exhaust temps of about 410*F 1-2 inches after the collector. Temps are cooler on individual 'headers' at points forward and vary a bit but I have seem plenty of that on other engines. I run it up to higher idles a bit and get same even temps after both collector points but higher low 500* F readings.
Again engine is smooth running. I get a bit of hesitation on larger throttle inputs from low idle and have heard one or two back/after fires, but rare. No hesitation an accel under load. Again, smooth starting and running, no pinging now, just down on power and glowing exhaust logs. I am trying to drive it under conditions that cause this as little as possible, because it's asking for more trouble. Guessing those things are 1200* or more to glow like that.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:42 AM
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You wonít find many (any) people here on FTE that are interested in talking about theory. At least not about engine diagnostics.
Iíve been on here for 5 years. Everyone here likes to help.

But theory doesnít help as much as actually diagnosing symptoms.

If you have codes: follow them. If you still have problems; start checking mechanical stuff.

I just re-read your posts and it (still) appears that your ignition timing theory is just an idea based on your level of knowledge. You need more than that. Otherwise you wouldnít be here asking for help.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:04 AM
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I am giving out symptoms on a silver platter, along with some tech data. More data: When I first saw it random misfiring on a local shop's professional scan tool, it was misfiring all cylinders and running but not smoothly. It is running smoothly now. I have seen engines with too much or too little timing run smoothly.

I have asked a specific question, how is timing referenced by the computer on this thing. Any answers?

Any specific questions for me? My level of knowledge is fine for stating the symptoms. Insufficient EGR flow code doesn't say much about glowing exhaust logs and low power, but my observations do. Based on my observations I have asked some specific questions. Does anyone know the answer?

If not, I'll either get my own high end scan tool and or start inspecting/replacing egr related parts even though that code doesn't give much to go on and I don't have any answers about EGR retarding timing (when it doesn't need to).

Do you disagree with my statements about what causes glowing exhaust headers/manifolds? If so, in what way? I have diagnosed the symptoms accurately.....now what is causing it? That is what we are doing here. For that, folks with knowledge about a particular engine step forward. Otherwise, I continue to add to my own knowledge of a particular vehicle's engine management system. I am providing quite a few specifics with none flowing back in my direction.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:15 PM
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https://www.samarins.com/diagnose/p0401.html

anything helpful on there? I donít actually have much knowledge about the EGR system. But I feel pretty strongly you should follow that diagnostic code until it is corrected.
 
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