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@Ted928
Thanks for the PM. I thought others might benefit also if I answered here. Hope you don't mind.
Congratulations on getting Torque Pro. It's the best $4.95 you could have spent for an OBDII scanner.
First - you will multiply Torque Pro's value by many times if you will follow the steps I laid out in this post: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17338920
Then - (you can add a Vehicle Profile for your 2010 Escape 3L (which uses a bunch of different PID's in completely different ranges from your F150 - ...'darn it'...).
Anyway - back to the problem at hand.
I don't see ANYTHING wrong with your Mode 06 report above. ZERO misfires on any cylinder in the last 10 drive cycles. THAT'S not bad. The "_HIGHEST_" misfire rate that has been registered by the Misfire Monitor (which runs continuously each drive cycle) is 13.827% ---THAT'S within the 0% to 23.9% 'pass' range. That is a GOOD THING. Test ID a1, Completion ID $82 is defined as the "_Highest_ catalyst-damage misfire and catalyst damage threshold misfire rate (updated when DTC set or clears)" REF: Motorcraft OBDII Theory of Operation Manual ..page 11.
It may be misfiring - but it certainly isn't doing it all the time. I'm not saying it is NOT misfiring, but if you haven't done a 'battery disconnect' reset recently, the Mode 06 report above certainly doesn't show it. Since you have Torque Pro now - you might benefit from the Misifre Monitor screen I have developed that is described here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17549804
A couple of valuable misfire PIDs that give a good measure of misfire health are MFTot (Total 'misfire' count during the current drive cycle) and MFF_0_CNT (Count of 'misfire free' drive cycles). I have placed these two gauges on my Torque 'home dashboard' and pay lots of attention to it. My ole 230k mile 2004 model truck almost NEVER shows more than 4 misfires in a drive cycle, and freequently racks up 30 to 40 and once 72 drive cycles without a single misfire. So it IS possible.
In your case - I feel the need for more information before chasing subtle misfire problems. The report suggests any misfire problem would be under certain circumstances and those need to be isolated / understood. If you get a code - be SURE to get "Freeze Frame data" before clearing codes. /// In Fact - I have decided it is not the best idea to reset CEL. That clears a lot of monitor status flags, counters, and other useful stuff that changes OTHER things. The PCM will actually clear the offending code (even pending code) and CEL itself (within two - three drive cycles) if the problem is removed. It's kinda the reverse logic to what everybody normally uses. They Change a part / clear CEL / and see if the CEL comes back on? I've decided I like to change the suspect part or whatever adjustment - and see if the PCM gets 'HAPPY'. With Torque Pro, I can always read codes again and see if they remained the same. In other words, the CEL is not _WHAT_ the problem is. It doesn't hurt the truck to run it ON - it just hurts ME. It can become a useful diagnostic tool though.
I need to review other posts of yours to see if anything can be spotted for you to look at with your new Torque Pro scanning tool.
Thank you very much for your help.
I will follow your links.
It was about 200 miles ago (on the way home) when I felt the shaking issue. I see that the individual misfire counts are all zero but the 13.8% number made me think that maybe the individual cylinder zero numbers are not real.
I did have a misfire code on cylinder 2 a few months ago. The plug was loose and heavily warn. I replaced all 8 plugs. After that it was fine but on the trip I noticed some mild (non-speed) related shaking. Once it shook significantly. That was 200 miles ago. Maybe the 13.8% is reflecting the loose plug problem and not the current issue.
...
... but the 13.8% number made me think that maybe the individual cylinder zero numbers are not real.
I understand. Only thing that would make them NOT real would be a battery disconnect or hard code clear just before running the Mode 06 report.
That 'smart' little PCM on our trucks does some pretty magic stuff. The Misfire Monitor (one of about Seven different 'health' monitors) runs continuously watching the teeth on the crankshaft tone ring - testing, calculating, averaging crankshaft acceleration rates for each cylinder over every 200 revolutions - watching for the 'presence or absence' of a proper crankshaft acceleration event as each COP is fired !!!! (Ref: Motorcraft OBDII Theory of Operation Manual, pgs 8-11) Damn, you would think it would get tired.
Your Mode 06 report indicates misfires HAD occurred in the past --- just not in the current or last 10 drive cycles, and the highest percentage of 'catalyst damaging' misfires during ANY 200 revolutions since last DTC or DTC Clear - was 13% of the firing events. That's a pretty good BURST. And the $a1, $84 test (Inferred Mid Bed Catalyst Temperature) is midrange of Max / Min. IDK if that is instantaneous or during maximum misfire rates for sure. But that is ~ what I see on my truck.
Anyway, If you set up the Torque Pro misfire monitor dashboard - when you feel the 'shutter', you can swipe over to the misfire dashboard and see immediately how many misfires occurred (if any), and what cylinders they occurred on.
I understand. Only thing that would make them NOT real would be a battery disconnect or hard code clear just before running the Mode 06 report.
That 'smart' little PCM on our trucks does some pretty magic stuff. The Misfire Monitor (one of about Seven different 'health' monitors) runs continuously watching the teeth on the crankshaft tone ring - testing, calculating, averaging crankshaft acceleration rates for each cylinder over every 200 revolutions - watching for the 'presence or absence' of a proper crankshaft acceleration event as each COP is fired !!!! (Ref: Motorcraft OBDII Theory of Operation Manual, pgs 8-11) Damn, you would think it would get tired.
Your Mode 06 report indicates misfires HAD occurred in the past --- just not in the current or last 10 drive cycles, and the highest percentage of 'catalyst damaging' misfires during ANY 200 revolutions since last DTC or DTC Clear - was 13% of the firing events. That's a pretty good BURST. And the $a1, $84 test (Inferred Mid Bed Catalyst Temperature) is midrange of Max / Min. IDK if that is instantaneous or during maximum misfire rates for sure. But that is ~ what I see on my truck.
Anyway, If you set up the Torque Pro misfire monitor dashboard - when you feel the 'shutter', you can swipe over to the misfire dashboard and see immediately how many misfires occurred (if any), and what cylinders they occurred on.
I am pretty sure I previously deleted the code but maybe I didn't. Or maybe I have had 10 drive cycles without issues. Just not sure.
Regardless, I will setup the your dashboard and keep an eye on it.
Thank you very much. You have been very helpful.
Just so you know, the individual engine counts are cleared every time the engine is started.
You need to run Mode 6 either before shutting the engine off
or
turn the key to run without starting the engine then running mode 6.
I saw the 13% in your scan and thought "Holy S**t" my misfiring was annoying and it never tripped 1%, I think, i'll have to look.
But yeah, you have to run 6 before shutdown or restart.
And, I suggest FORScan, not as useful as Torque Pro but ford dedicated, Finally found out why the '03 had the ABS light.
Finally, $80 is about the least you can get away with for an OBD dongle. I had a $20 one, ran hot as hell, and that didn't inspire faith.
Just so you know, the individual engine counts are cleared every time the engine is started.
...
You are right about that - (but the 'current drive cycle' only). IDK, not sure but I think clearing 'CODES' (or definately a battery disconnect) will clear counts for last ten drive cycles. That is ONE of the reasons I have decided it isn't such a good idea to clear codes so freequently as I used to. The PCM will clear them after multiple drive cycles if the cause is removed. (Just backwards logic. I used to clear codes and see if the came back!. Now I leave them, change something and see if they STAY!)
@Ted928's 13.8% is not so (Holly S^!@@t scary) when put in context of its particular test considered with other indications. The ECU runs a misfire monitor continuously - in 200 revolution increments keeping track of 'misfires' - as a percentage of 'fires'. If the percentage misfires is higher than ANY previous 200 revs, the percentage is stored for Test 'MID:$a1 TID:$82'. So a "BURST" of misfires would show up here. I realize it would ALSO show up here if one was misfiring 13% of the time ALL the time. So - the other characteristics must be weighed with it for the number to be very meaningful.
The other characteristics -- soak time, iat, RPM, load and on and on are very helpful and are captured in the Torque Pro MISFIRE dashboard I put together. And I have found / figured out how to create live data 'individual cylinder' misfire gauges in Torque by using Mode 06 commands like shown below. Detailed Torque Pro PIDs in these two posts: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17322257 https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17549804
Number of times I went to retrieve the previous days data but turned the key past run and into start. Habits I guess.
I had a couple classes in pascal (I'm that old) and C++, I'm assuming the long name opens the 'function', the pid to address, and all variables are local. At some time it compiles and runs. I need to find the cam pids to go along with the MAP/Vacuum, pedal and throttle plate positions (true).
Roll the pedal from 20% to 40, watch the plate go to 90~95%, MAP goes high and stays there as the throttle backs down to 50 or so. Be neat to see what the cam's doing.
I found the bad cylinder and it was #4; the plug I did not inspect since it is much harder to get to. See below. I'll pull the COP and plug tomorrow.
What puzzles me is how bad it shook from just one bad cylinder.
Originally Posted by Ted928
I replaced all the plugs in the spring as I had a #2 misfire. The plug was not tight so I think that caused the misfire. Today I inspected 7 of the plugs (the 8th is harder to get to). All were tight and looked fine. I drove today while monitoring LTFT on both banks and relative fuel manifold pressure. Both trims are similar and higher than I would expect (stays under 20). The pressure was near constant. There was no shaking (misfiring) so I will keep driving it and see if the readings change.
Last time I changed the boots and springs was at 30k miles so maybe I should change them (especially since the plug type is different than the previous set).
I still smell gasoline (faint) so maybe there is a leak. I have looked but can't find any issues. I replaced the injectors a year ago. I'll try searching the intake for leaks using solvent tomorrow.
...
----
MID:$a1 TID:$82
- Misfire Monitor General Data
Max: 23.9994% Min: 0%
Test result value: 19.99976% PASS
----
...
----
MID:$a5 TID:$0b
EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 4 Data
Max: 65,535 Min: 0
Test result value: 1
PASS
----
MID:$a5 TID:$0c
Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 4 Data
Max: 65,535 Min: 0 Test result value: 107 PASS
----
End of report.
@Ted928
I notice in a prior post that Cyl # 4 had a significant number of misfires in this report. It seemed to be the 'culprit' in past posts. And cylinder number 4 is the one that has the large percentage of 'possible "BURST"' misfires. I say that because the (E)xponentially (W)eighted (M)oving (A)verage of misfires on cylinder number 4 is VERY LOW. A "one".
That again suggests a 'BURST' of misfires. With the 'current' misfires being 107 ---- and the EWMA for the last ten drive cycles being 1, it appears the majority of your misfires occurred during THIS drive cycle.
I think you have my Torque Pro 'LIVE' misfire MONITOR screen on your Torque Pro App. Please do me a FAVOR test. Next time you 'START' the truck, please follow the following procedure.
1.) Plug in Torque Pro's dongle.
2.) Start Torque Pro.
3.) Set Torque Pro to the Live Misfire Monitor Screen.
4.) Turn the Ignition Switch - BUT DO NOT start the engine. Wait 60 (FULL) Seconds.
5.) Start the Engine - and when idle settles down to normal idle (around 600-650 rpm), take a Screen Snapshot of Torque Pro.
6.) Let us know if you have a bunch of misfires on Cylinder Number 4.
The purpose of this test is specifically to see if the fuel injector on Cyl number 4 might be leaking (weeping) KOEO. If so, #4 will be so rich it will misfire a number of times before natural aspiration clears the raw fuel out of the intake valve of number 4.
I notice in a prior post that Cyl # 4 had a significant number of misfires in this report. It seemed to be the 'culprit' in past posts. And cylinder number 4 is the one that has the large percentage of 'possible "BURST"' misfires. I say that because the (E)xponentially (W)eighted (M)oving (A)verage of misfires on cylinder number 4 is VERY LOW. A "one".
That again suggests a 'BURST' of misfires. With the 'current' misfires being 107 ---- and the EWMA for the last ten drive cycles being 1, it appears the majority of your misfires occurred during THIS drive cycle.
I think you have my Torque Pro 'LIVE' misfire MONITOR screen on your Torque Pro App. Please do me a FAVOR test. Next time you 'START' the truck, please follow the following procedure.
1.) Plug in Torque Pro's dongle.
2.) Start Torque Pro.
3.) Set Torque Pro to the Live Misfire Monitor Screen.
4.) Turn the Ignition Switch - BUT DO NOT start the engine. Wait 60 (FULL) Seconds.
5.) Start the Engine - and when idle settles down to normal idle (around 600-650 rpm), take a Screen Snapshot of Torque Pro.
6.) Let us know if you have a bunch of misfires on Cylinder Number 4.
The purpose of this test is specifically to see if the fuel injector on Cyl number 4 might be leaking (weeping) KOEO. If so, #4 will be so rich it will misfire a number of times before natural aspiration clears the raw fuel out of the intake valve of number 4.
I pulled #4. COP looked fine. The plug was tight but it looks like it wasn't sealing well. I think the poor seal allows air to get sucked in so the misfire is not a miss, but instead predetonation as the truck would really shake.
I cleaned the plug, vacuumed the hole, and inspected the hole with a scope.
I swapped COP and plug with #2 so it will easier to replace incase they act up again. Hopefully the faint gas smell and misfire problem is solved. Time will tell.
Thanks for everyone's help.
Changed the plugs in my 5.4 and had got the plugs from my Ford store and had a misfire/ shutter. Did the same thing as you did it moved with the plug! Brand new plug was junk out of box! Went and got another and it ran great.Yah that was a six hour project.5 of 8 snapped off but I was prepared for it the guy I got it from never changed them.
...
I had a couple classes in pascal (I'm that old) and C++, I'm assuming the long name opens the 'function', the pid to address, and all variables are local. At some time it compiles and runs. I need to find the cam pids to go along with the MAP/Vacuum, pedal and throttle plate positions (true).
Roll the pedal from 20% to 40, watch the plate go to 90~95%, MAP goes high and stays there as the throttle backs down to 50 or so. ......................
Be neat to see what the cam's doing.
What was this thread about?
@NEO_Mark I think I have just what you are asking for. I posted it sometime ago (on another forum). Hopefully it will be helpful for others here, so I'm starting a new thread with the Torque Pro dashboard for monitoring Variable Valve Timing on the 2004 - 2008 Triton. With your background, I have a feeling you may build on it nicely. https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post17715633
Since I made the repair, I have been seeing zero misfires. This was driving me nuts as I knew there should be a couple. I had disconnected the battery in order to perform the repair. I have the P1000 code so I was waiting for the emissions test to be completed think that was the cause of not have misfire detection working. Since it is cold, it hasn't happened. Yesterday the misfire counts started working. I looked and saw that the P1000 is still present.
I looked through the OBD II Motorcraft Service Manual Theory and finally found the answer.
“Profile correction” software is used to “learn” and correct for mechanical inaccuracies in crankshaft tooth spacing
under de-fueled engine conditions (requires three 60 to 40 mph no-braking decels after Keep Alive Memory has
been reset). If KAM has been reset, the PCM microprocessor initiates a special routine which computes correction
factors for each of the 18 (or 20) position references and sends these correction factors back to the AICE chip to
be used for subsequent misfire signal processing. These learned corrections improve the high rpm capability of the
monitor. The misfire monitor is not active until a profile has been learned.
This is important: After a battery disconnect, you do not have misfire protection until you do this.
It appears that the misfire problem is gone. No repeat violent shaking and only a couple counts per drive cycle.
But... I still have vibration between 40-50MPH when in overdrive. If I let up on the gas the vibration lessens but it is still there. Give it more gas and I get more vibration. There are no misfires occurring.
I read a thread that said to disconnect the VVT actuator to see if it improved. I have not yet tried that. Do I disconnect one or both? Suggestions please?
12-31-2017, 09:49 PM
