When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Good call on pulling the vac line to the distributor for a test to isolate if that is causing the problem. I would definitely check with Tmeyer. He built and dyno'd my engine. With 0 deck and the highly efficient combustion chambers of these heads, my all-in timing was max of 26*. With 89 octane I occasionally had a slight ping under light acceleration as the transmission shifted into the next gears. My transmission had a problem and we needed to pull it so I spent the money on a T/C with a 200 rpm higher stall over stock. All pinging ceased!
Last edited by dmash; 04-26-2018 at 08:06 AM.
Reason: typed 87 octane, meant 89 octane, added T/C
Now that the transmission came to shine, i have to point that mine is a new rebuilt from Monster Transmission and Performance here in Florida. To my disappointment its not up-shifting/downshifting right, a tech guy assisted me on a few things to do in order to correct the issue but it did not work, so today their warranty department will get me started in a claim/repair process, they have been very helpful and friendly during these past two days and Im hopeful that they will get it right. Having this issue with the tranny makes the pinging worse.The guy who built my engine will fine tune the HEI to get rid of the pinging ( hopefully) also the new gear box and the power steering keeps on foaming and overflowing fluid, I know, air trapped in the system but I tried everything and still acting up.
I know a local guy that only does steering systems and he will get it right, so, as you guy can see its a handful of things that will need attention, Ill keep you posted so this might benefit folks that will be looking for information when they do their build.
A quick update note.
I talked to Timothy Meyer a few moments ago and what he typically run is from 10 to 12 degree on based timing and 15-16 advanced so around 26* is the sweet spot, then adding vehicle weight, gears, tires so on and so forth is where every build has to be tailored as far as timing curve. I'm hopeful and optimistic after my conversation with Tim, as per his remarks " I will be surprised if that wont run fine with 87 pump gas" he mentioned that for his builds he uses the 62cc Heads and that I should be fine even with the small cam paired with the 72cc from Trick Flow. I will report back as I get some progress done.
As far as the Monster Transmission, I am taking the Bronco 5 hours drive ( one way) to their service facility in Brooksville ,Fl. No pain no Gain.
Thank you for the update, and hats off to you for being honest.
Personally I wouldn't let the shop owner near my truck ever again, and I'd tell him to f$$k off.
You already know what's going on, why does he want to see also ? LOL (Unless he's going to step up to the plate and change your cam, professionally, and free of charge.)
Yes, his tinkering with the vacuum advance could well work to stop the pinging, but that's simply putting a plaster on a broken arm !!
I will suggest this :
Plug the vacuum advance and test drive.
If no pinging, great, (Wishful thinking !) use the allen key to back off the vacuum advance, reconnect, test drive.
If yes to pinging, retard the static timing, test drive.
Guaranteed that retarding your timing will get rid of the pinging, but it will also get rid of power and fuel efficiency.
In a nutshell, retard your timing now to avoid pinging, drive your truck, and when you're ready, fit a proper cam.
Out of curiosity, is your cranking pressure 170, or closer to 190 ?
FMJ according to the shop the crancking pressure is around 175.
Today I removed the hose from the vacuum advance and zero pinging, nada, nothing... I'm hopeful this will be dialed in soon. Tim Meyers gave mne good hopes. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and help with the Ford community.
Haha, don't thank me yet as you've just renewed my hopes that I'm wrong !
I had initially assumed that your dizzy was dialed in, and you know what they say about assumptions.
I'm pleased that the pinging packed it's bags and left after the vacuum advance was disconnected, but I don't know if that's good, bad, or no news, without all ignition timing details.
Tomorrow, before the mechanic adjusts the timing, please make a note of the idle timing with no vacuum attached, and the idle timing with vacuum attached (if manifold vacuum).
When he's done, please post the before and after numbers.
Tomorrow will be a good time to set the timing curve.
When you later change to a lower octane gas, say 87, expect to retard your timing again.
I hope I'm not coming across as ''Mr Negative'' , but I'm not convinced yet that your cam is ok !
Hmmm, if you can tomorrow, please test the CP on just one cylinder, or more if time permits, with throttle plates held open, and see if it is in fact +/- 175.
I like the recent posts. The numbers posted are useful, and I had no idea about auto transmissions influencing pinging !?
As a possible benchmark, my 351C engine's close to Tim's numbers with a 14 idle, 12 centrifugal, and a total of 26. The vacuum advance is 20 at idle and connected to manifold. No pinging on 91 octane at WOT or otherwise.
The SCR is 10.12, DCR is 7.88 (assumed) and the measured CP's on all 8 cylinders are between 170 and 175, 0.006'' negative deck, D top pistons with 60cc ally heads.
(Note that I have a 175 CP with a DCR of only 7.88.)
I think the reason the looser T/C ended my pinging is because it allowed a little more slip right after the shift. It only occurred on light acceleration. Before changing it, if I fed it a little harder pedal the pinging would stop.
I think there might be something else to verify. You changed from a 351 crank to a 400. If I remember correctly, I read someplace that when you swap parts around something gets wonky with the correlation between the timing marks on the balancer and the timing pointer. Maybe I just imagined I read that, I may have slept a time or two since then.
Be sure to measure your vacuum at idle, your cam likely lowered it from stock. I learned on my project, that engine vacuum is a component your transmission valving uses along with the road speed governor in the tail of the transmission, to determine when to shift up. It uses the amount of vacuum to estimate how hard you are pressing on the gas pedal or % load you are asking for. If the cam lowers the vacuum compared to stock, and the transmission valving is set up for stock vacuum, it will shift later because it thinks you are mashing the pedal and want a later shift for faster acceleration. There are various vacuum modulators for different engine applications, I think even an adjustable one. They are accessible on the outside of the transmission (that little diaphragm where your vacuum line hooks up) and may be what is causing your shift problem. May check into that before you travel to your transmission shop.
Ok folks, here's another update.
Initial time is 10* now and total time ended up @ 26* the advance vacuum hose was disconnected and nipples were plugged up. I was reluctant about not utilizing the canister but since I am not an expert in the subject I had to go by the engine's builder decision. He assured me I dint need it. The bottom line is that the engine sounded great and it is powerful ( I did two burn out )
Pinging is gone. Flow master sounded bad ***, 93 octane in my tank now so the 87 octane run will be after transmission gets taken care of. Champion dual 12" fan are Chinese junk and kept my temperature hotter than stock so I went ahead I ordered two Spal Electric Fans 30103202 from Summit Racing, that should take care of the problem. Slowly but surely this Bronco is getting ready. Peace guys!
Do yourself a huuuuuuuge favour and google the advantages of vacuum advance ignition timing, then decide : if those Champion fans are in fact sh$t, if you are happy with the mechanic's decision, and if he basically put a plaster on a broken arm !!!
The sentence with 10* idle and 26* total sounds very good, until one considers the engine is using 93 octane and has no vacuum advance.
In your first post you stated that you wanted to run the engine on regular pump gas, and then repeated that requirement in a later post.
Of course you can run your engine on 87 octane gas now, that's a no brainer, but there will be a noticable corresponding sacrifice.
I warned you in post 19 that your cam was not correct, and numerous times after that, but you went ahead and installed it anyway.
You asked Dimora if he sorted out his pinging. He clearly states that he did, and wrote 10* idle and 28* total on 93 octane, with vacuum advance attached.
He also states that he used Iron quench heads, has an SCR of 9.5, a DCR of 8.83 and a CP of 181.
The DCR is in fact 7.6 and the CP is probably +/- 165.
The DCR of 8.83 and CP of 181 were calculated using the 0.05'' lift intake valve closing time of 32, but should have used the 0.006'' time of 65.
In addition to googling vacuum advance, I was going to suggest that you do yourself a second huuuuuge favour and also google the relationship between gas octane, engine power and ignition timing, but I doubt you will.
The sentence with 10* idle and 26* total sounds very good, until one considers the engine is using 93 octane and has no vacuum advance.
In your first post you stated that you wanted to run the engine on regular pump gas, and then repeated that requirement in a later post.
Of course you can run your engine on 87 octane gas now, that's a no brainer, but there will be a noticable corresponding sacrifice.
I warned you in post 19 that your cam was not correct, and numerous times after that, but you went ahead and installed it anyway.
You asked Dimora if he sorted out his pinging. He clearly states that he did, and wrote 10* idle and 28* total on 93 octane, with vacuum advance attached.
He also states that he used Iron quench heads, has an SCR of 9.5, a DCR of 8.83 and a CP of 181.
The DCR is in fact 7.6 and the CP is probably +/- 165.
The DCR of 8.83 and CP of 181 were calculated using the 0.05'' lift intake valve closing time of 32, but should have used the 0.006'' time of 65.
In addition to googling vacuum advance, I was going to suggest that you do yourself a second huuuuuge favour and also google the relationship between gas octane, engine power and ignition timing, but I doubt you will.
I have nothing more to add to this thread.
FMJ take it easy man, dont leave me now high and dried, this journey is far from over, at the end the purpose of this forums is to expose all the information as we go along and to find out what worked and what din't . Keep in mind that my Summit HEI distributor has not kit to fine tune it, even you mentioned to use a tie wrap and different springs ( cant find them) eventually I will get a DUI or MSD so that I can fine tune it and have my vacuum advance as I really wanted to from the get go, I was reluctant about deleting it but as for now Im fine with that decision as long as there's no pinging, do you get me? I still need to deal with the transmission and power steering issues. Take care mate!
I've just fitted the exact same one, but haven't had time to check the ignition timings yet.
That kit states that it includes limiters, but Summit told me that they are not limiters, but bushings rather.
Hence my comment about using a tie wrap.
You've got me curious, how did the mechanic limit your dizzy to 26* ?
Can you, and do you, do any engine work on your truck yourself, or do you leave it for the mechanic ?
Yes I get you, I can appreciate that you're happy now with no pinging, but you're not going to be happy with a hotter running engine and +/-20% less gas mileage due to the vacuum advance being disconnected.
Then, when you dial in the vacuum advance and retard the mechanical timing to compensate, you're not going to be happy with less power, and still not 100% fuel efficiency, and that's before you try 87 octane gas.
All that negative crap said, I see that Joel's engine takes 87 or 89 octane with no pinging, and his estimated DCR and CP is similar to yours !!??
And that's without a zero deck !
I would definitely have told him no to that cam, and I would definitely have been wrong.
It might be helpful to know his actual ignition timings and measured actual CP.
I felt that I should get back in this thread and report about my build.
After getting my transmission problem taken care of I've driven over 700 miles and I am loving the way this Bronco runs now. I have to say that Monster Transmission is a big scam, their just a transmission sales company and everything turned out to be the worse night mare ever, anyways going back to Iron Bruiser, Huge difference now from the previews 351M configuration.
I ordered a new DUI distributor but Im not planning on installing it any time soon since the Summit Hei is doing just fine, even with not vacuum advanced hooked up yet.
Truck now has a low stall torque converter ( 1400-1650 rpm ) and it made a big difference in this torquy monster, so much responsive that the 1800-2200 TC that I had before and capable while climbing inclines when off roading. Mileage is from 9.3 to 9.7 miles a gallon, I am using 89 octane most of the time but on occasion i top it off with 87 and no pinging whatsoever so that makes me a happy camper. Temperature fluctuates between 175 to 195 using dual spal fan. Each fan is controlled by a dedicated thermo switch one 180-160 degrees and the other one 185-175 degree. Transmission wont go over 150 degrees and thats because of the massive trans cooler that I Installed along with the DD aluminum fluid pan. I had to remove the mechanical Bosch temperature gauges since they both failed with in the same week ( chinese quality) so now I'm running USA made Auto Meter and so far so good.I was having an oil leakage from the valve cover and yesterday they got re-tighten about one full turn, hopefully that should stop it. No oil residues around the valve pcv valve or breather. Engine sounds super nice with the dual flomaster.
LIFE IS GOOD!
If you're on the edge of pinging, a couple ounces of kerosene to each tank of gasoline will usually get rid of it and allow full ignition timing/HP/torque/MPG... kerosene costs about the same price per gallon as gasoline here at the gas station and is also a fuel so doesn't hurt MPG... I buy it by the gallon but carry it in 12 ounce old octane booster bottle...
04-26-2018, 08:03 AM
, 93 octane in my tank now so the 87 octane run will be after transmission gets taken care of. Champion dual 12" fan are Chinese junk and kept my temperature hotter than stock so I went ahead I ordered two Spal Electric Fans 30103202 from Summit Racing, that should take care of the problem. Slowly but surely this Bronco is getting ready. Peace guys!
