Help! towing sway on my 2000 4x4 Excursion after tire change
#1
09-17-2017, 10:17 AM
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Help! towing sway on my 2000 4x4 Excursion after tire change
As the title states, I need help with the sway will towing. With advice from a friend it was time for new tires. The original factory Firestone bias ply were replaced with Michelin LT 265 load range E. Maybe coincidence, but the white knuckle drives with my 27 foot travel trailer have become intolerable. I have spent countless hours doing research, and when done with all the suggestions, I could spend enough to buy a new truck! So I went to my trailer shop and they recommended and stated that if you have radials on the truck you should have radials on the trailer. Ok, so I had them put on new tires. My Ex has only 60k miles with the original shocks. I had the steering box tightened...helped a little. My rig was profesionaly done with weight distribution bars. I am installing a friction sway bar on the traler this week. To cut to the chase. I want to replace all the shocks and better front steering stabilizers. when I tow it feels like the front tires just arent on the rod like they should be. My research and logic thinks the front shocks just arent pushing the tires to the pavement. My Ex already rides like crap...maybe worn out shocks.... so I have decided on Bilstein shocks, but what model? Do I want a heavier duty or off road shock? I am searching for opinion on a good riding shock as well as for towing performance! HELP! DESPERATE!
#2
09-17-2017, 10:49 AM
Ok... slow down. We can help you with this but hold on to the wallet for a bit.
Are you saying that you didn't have any sway prior to the Michelin tires? Your rig towed just fine on the old tires? Then that's where you need to focus your attention and I'd start with tire pressure. Air the rears up to 80 psi and the fronts 60 or 65. I bet all your sway goes away if you didn't have any before. Tires pressures are very important on the tow vehicle because it keeps the sidewall stiff and the rig doesn't wander as much.
Second... when you say the shop told you that the truck and trailer have to have the same kind of tires (which is BS, he was just trying to sell you a new set of tires), what tires were replaced? You didn't say.
Third... "Professionally done with weight distribution bars" doesn't mean diddly-squat. If you want it done right, do it yourself. If they didn't use a large commercial scale, they were just guessing at the number of links on the chain to use. There are a few threads in the towing forum that detail how to correctly set up a WDH. If your front axle doesn't feel firmly planted on the ground, it sounds like your WDH is set up incorrectly.
Fourth... Shocks don't push tires to the pavements. You are thinking of springs. The shock absorber's only function in life is to reduce the oscillation movement inherent in all springs. That being said, ditching the OEM shocks and going with Bilstein shocks are a great upgrade. I have them on my rig, however this leads to my next point...
Fifth... most folks that tow with an Excursion aren't very happy with the factory suspension. It's too soft and doesn't handle the weight of a heavy trailer very well. You didn't say how much your trailer weighs, but if yours is in the 7000+ up range, a spring swap will cure a lot of the wander that these things came with from the factory and has only worsened since. I also highly recommend an anti-sway bar on the rear. I went with an adjustable from Hellwig. The springs add a little bit of lift so if you order stock length shocks for the Excursion, you will end up replacing them if you do a spring swap.
Basically, if you want your Excursion to tow like a dream, set it up like mine. I have it dialed in pretty well at this point and I have virtually no sway. I recently drove from California to South Carolina, loaded down to a little over 19k. I had a little wind in Kansas that required me to keep both hands on the wheel, but other than that it was smooth sailing with no sway or trailer problems at all (unless you count a bent tongue jack at a gas station curb somewhere in Missouri).
Are you saying that you didn't have any sway prior to the Michelin tires? Your rig towed just fine on the old tires? Then that's where you need to focus your attention and I'd start with tire pressure. Air the rears up to 80 psi and the fronts 60 or 65. I bet all your sway goes away if you didn't have any before. Tires pressures are very important on the tow vehicle because it keeps the sidewall stiff and the rig doesn't wander as much.
Second... when you say the shop told you that the truck and trailer have to have the same kind of tires (which is BS, he was just trying to sell you a new set of tires), what tires were replaced? You didn't say.
Third... "Professionally done with weight distribution bars" doesn't mean diddly-squat. If you want it done right, do it yourself. If they didn't use a large commercial scale, they were just guessing at the number of links on the chain to use. There are a few threads in the towing forum that detail how to correctly set up a WDH. If your front axle doesn't feel firmly planted on the ground, it sounds like your WDH is set up incorrectly.
Fourth... Shocks don't push tires to the pavements. You are thinking of springs. The shock absorber's only function in life is to reduce the oscillation movement inherent in all springs. That being said, ditching the OEM shocks and going with Bilstein shocks are a great upgrade. I have them on my rig, however this leads to my next point...
Fifth... most folks that tow with an Excursion aren't very happy with the factory suspension. It's too soft and doesn't handle the weight of a heavy trailer very well. You didn't say how much your trailer weighs, but if yours is in the 7000+ up range, a spring swap will cure a lot of the wander that these things came with from the factory and has only worsened since. I also highly recommend an anti-sway bar on the rear. I went with an adjustable from Hellwig. The springs add a little bit of lift so if you order stock length shocks for the Excursion, you will end up replacing them if you do a spring swap.
Basically, if you want your Excursion to tow like a dream, set it up like mine. I have it dialed in pretty well at this point and I have virtually no sway. I recently drove from California to South Carolina, loaded down to a little over 19k. I had a little wind in Kansas that required me to keep both hands on the wheel, but other than that it was smooth sailing with no sway or trailer problems at all (unless you count a bent tongue jack at a gas station curb somewhere in Missouri).
#4
09-17-2017, 11:55 AM
Not to say you are wrong, but I have never seen an excursion come from the factory with bias ply tires, although that doesn't matter in this case. andym is correct in his post, first check your tire pressure, I don't have an Excursion, I have an F350 dually crewcab long box but my best friend has one and while he can't tow the weight that I can after I set his up his tows very well with no sway. I like to run about 75 PSI in the front, with a diesel, gas can run 65 without a problem and 80 PSI in the rear. I also upgraded his rear springs to F350 specs by a spring shop, they put in just a little bit less arch than the pick ups run to avoid sitting too high in the rear unloaded, I then added the F350 factory over load springs and went with KYB shocks all around. The final adjustment was the WDH, he thought he had it right but a trip to the scale showed not enough weight transfer to the front end, he had an Equalizer brand with no chains so we raised the L brackets on the tongue 1 set of bolt holes and it now tows as it should. He did have a tendency to load too much behind the axles, the scale showed only 51% of his weight on the front end but after the heavier rear springs and some education how to load he now has zero sway.
#5
09-17-2017, 12:12 PM
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#6
09-17-2017, 02:30 PM
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Ok... slow down. We can help you with this but hold on to the wallet for a bit.
Are you saying that you didn't have any sway prior to the Michelin tires? Your rig towed just fine on the old tires? Then that's where you need to focus your attention and I'd start with tire pressure. Air the rears up to 80 psi and the fronts 60 or 65.******(I have the fronts at 65, but only 75 in the rears I will try 80).**** I bet all your sway goes away if you didn't have any before. Tires pressures are very important on the tow vehicle because it keeps the sidewall stiff and the rig doesn't wander as much.
Second... when you say the shop told you that the truck and trailer have to have the same kind of tires (which is BS, he was just trying to sell you a new set of tires), what tires were replaced? You didn't say.***(Bias ply Load Star
, but not sure of the size. The new tires are Load Star ST 205/75 R15 101/97M Radial****
Third... "Professionally done with weight distribution bars" doesn't mean diddly-squat. If you want it done right, do it yourself. If they didn't use a large commercial scale, they were just guessing at the number of links on the chain to use.***(It was fine prior. The tounge weight was weighed in at about 500lbs****) There are a few threads in the towing forum that detail how to correctly set up a WDH.****(Sorry what is "WHD")***** If your front axle doesn't feel firmly planted on the ground, it sounds like your WDH is set up incorrectly.
Fourth... Shocks don't push tires to the pavements. You are thinking of springs. The shock absorber's only function in life is to reduce the oscillation movement inherent in all springs. That being said, ditching the OEM shocks and going with Bilstein shocks are a great upgrade. I have them on my rig,**** (Can you give me the model of your shocks?)*** however this leads to my next point...
Fifth... most folks that tow with an Excursion aren't very happy with the factory suspension. It's too soft and doesn't handle the weight of a heavy trailer very well. You didn't say how much your trailer weighs, but if yours is in the 7000+ up range, a spring swap will cure a lot of the wander that these things came with from the factory and has only worsened since.****(my trailer is 6800 lbs dry weight, with another 1000lbs of stuff/beer)**** I also highly recommend an anti-sway bar on the rear. I went with an adjustable from Hellwig.****(30, 32, or 36mm?)***** This adds a little bit of lift so if you order stock length shocks for the Excursion, you will end up replacing them if you do a spring swap.
Basically, if you want your Excursion to tow like a dream, set it up like mine. I have it dialed in pretty well at this point and I have virtually no sway. I recently drove from California to South Carolina, loaded down to a little over 19k. I had a little wind in Kansas that required me to keep both hands on the wheel, but other than that it was smooth sailing with no sway or trailer problems at all (unless you count a bent tongue jack at a gas station curb somewhere in Missouri).
Are you saying that you didn't have any sway prior to the Michelin tires? Your rig towed just fine on the old tires? Then that's where you need to focus your attention and I'd start with tire pressure. Air the rears up to 80 psi and the fronts 60 or 65.******(I have the fronts at 65, but only 75 in the rears I will try 80).**** I bet all your sway goes away if you didn't have any before. Tires pressures are very important on the tow vehicle because it keeps the sidewall stiff and the rig doesn't wander as much.
Second... when you say the shop told you that the truck and trailer have to have the same kind of tires (which is BS, he was just trying to sell you a new set of tires), what tires were replaced? You didn't say.***(Bias ply Load Star
, but not sure of the size. The new tires are Load Star ST 205/75 R15 101/97M Radial****
Third... "Professionally done with weight distribution bars" doesn't mean diddly-squat. If you want it done right, do it yourself. If they didn't use a large commercial scale, they were just guessing at the number of links on the chain to use.***(It was fine prior. The tounge weight was weighed in at about 500lbs****) There are a few threads in the towing forum that detail how to correctly set up a WDH.****(Sorry what is "WHD")***** If your front axle doesn't feel firmly planted on the ground, it sounds like your WDH is set up incorrectly.
Fourth... Shocks don't push tires to the pavements. You are thinking of springs. The shock absorber's only function in life is to reduce the oscillation movement inherent in all springs. That being said, ditching the OEM shocks and going with Bilstein shocks are a great upgrade. I have them on my rig,**** (Can you give me the model of your shocks?)*** however this leads to my next point...
Fifth... most folks that tow with an Excursion aren't very happy with the factory suspension. It's too soft and doesn't handle the weight of a heavy trailer very well. You didn't say how much your trailer weighs, but if yours is in the 7000+ up range, a spring swap will cure a lot of the wander that these things came with from the factory and has only worsened since.****(my trailer is 6800 lbs dry weight, with another 1000lbs of stuff/beer)**** I also highly recommend an anti-sway bar on the rear. I went with an adjustable from Hellwig.****(30, 32, or 36mm?)***** This adds a little bit of lift so if you order stock length shocks for the Excursion, you will end up replacing them if you do a spring swap.
Basically, if you want your Excursion to tow like a dream, set it up like mine. I have it dialed in pretty well at this point and I have virtually no sway. I recently drove from California to South Carolina, loaded down to a little over 19k. I had a little wind in Kansas that required me to keep both hands on the wheel, but other than that it was smooth sailing with no sway or trailer problems at all (unless you count a bent tongue jack at a gas station curb somewhere in Missouri).
......Thanks so much! Im not much of a mechanic and need to find a shop in my area that can do the work. I went to a Mechanic shop which checked out the front end and replaced ball joints and one fornt ?tie rod. They maintain my truck and are very good and know for suspension work. So far they have not diagnosed my problem other than the steering box. So what kind of shop do I go too? I only have two weeks to get this done as I leave for the PA mountainsSorry for the asterisks, but my PC wouldnt let me color or italicize.Thanks again. PS I am in Toms River NJ.
#7
09-17-2017, 03:07 PM
If your tongue weight is only 500 lbs, and your trailer's dry weight is 6800, your tongue weight is WAY too low. It should be ideally around 12-14% of the total trailer weight. Watch what happens in this video when weight is transferred off the tongue and to the rear of the trailer:
Is this what's happening to you?
This one:
......Thanks so much! Im not much of a mechanic and need to find a shop in my area that can do the work. I went to a Mechanic shop which checked out the front end and replaced ball joints and one fornt ?tie rod. They maintain my truck and are very good and know for suspension work. So far they have not diagnosed my problem other than the steering box. So what kind of shop do I go too? I only have two weeks to get this done as I leave for the PA mountainsSorry for the asterisks, but my PC wouldnt let me color or italicize.Thanks again. PS I am in Toms River NJ.
Load up your camper as you would to go on a trip, including beer (simulated if necessary, plus full water tanks, propane, etc.) Find a Cat scale or other commercial scale that can give you separate weights for the steer, drive, and trailer axles. You can do it at a scale that only has one weight, but I'm not 100% sure of the method. You'll want to take three weights: one with the whole truck and trailer with the WDH hooked up. Disconnect the WDH and weigh it again. Then disconnect the trailer and weigh just the truck. This should only cost about $15 or so. Don't let the people at the counter tell you that it won't work because you don't have a big rig. Their scales will weigh a Volkswagen accurately.
Once you get all the weights, you will be able to see the actual trailer weight, the actual tongue weight, and how much of the tongue weight you're transferring back to the front axle. My guess is that you'll find you need to tweak the WDH to get everything where it should be.
Tongue weight should be between 10% and 15%. The WDH should restore between 50% and 100% of the weight back to the front axle but no more.
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#8
09-17-2017, 03:24 PM
You are probably going to find that when you are all loaded and hitched up properly, that the factory suspension is very close the bump stops. As I said, the Excursion came with a softer suspension than the trucks did in the name of passenger comfort. They also tend to sag after carrying around an 8000 lb truck for 15+ years so most of them sit even lower now than they did when new. This is why many people have ditched the factory springs and either gone with new springs from ATS or found a set of F250/F350 take-offs on craigslist.
Also, your bumpstops are an integral part of the suspension. Take a look at them closely - if they are cracked, dry rotted, falling apart, or missing, replace them. I have all new ones on my truck and they all have contact marks on them even with the heavier springs.
The list of stuff I have done to my truck since I bought it in 2014 is very long. MUCH longer than I ever imagined it would be. These are very capable tow rigs in stock form, but they are so much better with the right modifications.
Also, your bumpstops are an integral part of the suspension. Take a look at them closely - if they are cracked, dry rotted, falling apart, or missing, replace them. I have all new ones on my truck and they all have contact marks on them even with the heavier springs.
The list of stuff I have done to my truck since I bought it in 2014 is very long. MUCH longer than I ever imagined it would be. These are very capable tow rigs in stock form, but they are so much better with the right modifications.
#9
09-19-2017, 09:17 AM
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I do not have a separate trailer sway adapter. My WDH simply doesn't need it as sway control is built in.
#10
09-20-2017, 06:37 AM
Laughing Gas
Good advice here.
Are you saying that the ONLY change you made was putting new tires on your EX, and then you had trailer sway that made the rig undriveable? Or did they do other work at the same time, or between your towing trips?
The only thing I would add is, are you absolutely SURE the tire shop put load rand E tires on your Ex? Is this the same shop that told you you had to have "matching" radials on your trailer (utter BS)?
If it's the same shop, I would get down and visually check the sidewalls of all 4 of your Ex tires to make sure they really did put load range E tires on it.
If the tires are load range E, and NO OTHER changes were made to your rig, then your Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) is not set up properly.
Are you saying that the ONLY change you made was putting new tires on your EX, and then you had trailer sway that made the rig undriveable? Or did they do other work at the same time, or between your towing trips?
The only thing I would add is, are you absolutely SURE the tire shop put load rand E tires on your Ex? Is this the same shop that told you you had to have "matching" radials on your trailer (utter BS)?
If it's the same shop, I would get down and visually check the sidewalls of all 4 of your Ex tires to make sure they really did put load range E tires on it.
If the tires are load range E, and NO OTHER changes were made to your rig, then your Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) is not set up properly.
#11
09-20-2017, 07:08 AM
Point is, if all you changed was the tires then it may be something peculiar about your tires. I can see them have this "walking" affect on a truck or trailer. BTW, I did vary the tire pressure within reason considering the load but that had no effect.
#12
09-20-2017, 09:10 AM
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I'm zeroing in on what Slowpoke Slim says here. I recently had an experience with brand new load range E tires on the back of my 3/4 ton pickup. I don't know if it was the tread pattern or the rubber formula but those tires "walked" side to side unpredictably. Without mentioning the brand, I'll just say they were aggressive mud tires. I've always had mud tires on the back of pickups...for nearly 30 years and never experienced walking. The tires got better after 5000 miles but were never normal so I got rid of them. It was annoying when driving empty but down right scary with the 5th wheel hitched doing freeway speeds. No fun having the back of your truck move side to side like driving on jello.
Point is, if all you changed was the tires then it may be something peculiar about your tires. I can see them have this "walking" affect on a truck or trailer. BTW, I did vary the tire pressure within reason considering the load but that had no effect.
Point is, if all you changed was the tires then it may be something peculiar about your tires. I can see them have this "walking" affect on a truck or trailer. BTW, I did vary the tire pressure within reason considering the load but that had no effect.
#13
09-20-2017, 10:14 AM
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Tongue weight it critical to avoiding sway. It sounds like you don't have enough tongue weight. Changing the links on the WDH might help a small amount, but I would put that down as a long shot, more of a tiny band-aid on a gaping wound.
I wouldn't be making suspension changes unless you didn't like the ride quality in the first place. The one exception to that is the sway bar. I have had one on my past truck and now my F-350. I wouldn't drive on the highways without one.
I wouldn't be making suspension changes unless you didn't like the ride quality in the first place. The one exception to that is the sway bar. I have had one on my past truck and now my F-350. I wouldn't drive on the highways without one.
#14
09-20-2017, 12:16 PM
Lead Driver
Wow you sure are spending a lot of money when you still aren't sure what your problem is. I hope you get the desired results!
As for what link on the chain for the wdh, that's really impossible to say without knowing the axle weights from a cat scale, and it will require some trial and error. If it was me, I'd start off having the chains fairly loose to start and see how it pulls. You are already light in the tongue, no sense making that worse with the wdh.....
As for what link on the chain for the wdh, that's really impossible to say without knowing the axle weights from a cat scale, and it will require some trial and error. If it was me, I'd start off having the chains fairly loose to start and see how it pulls. You are already light in the tongue, no sense making that worse with the wdh.....
#15
09-20-2017, 01:13 PM
Wow you sure are spending a lot of money when you still aren't sure what your problem is. I hope you get the desired results!
As for what link on the chain for the wdh, that's really impossible to say without knowing the axle weights from a cat scale, and it will require some trial and error. If it was me, I'd start off having the chains fairly loose to start and see how it pulls. You are already light in the tongue, no sense making that worse with the wdh.....
As for what link on the chain for the wdh, that's really impossible to say without knowing the axle weights from a cat scale, and it will require some trial and error. If it was me, I'd start off having the chains fairly loose to start and see how it pulls. You are already light in the tongue, no sense making that worse with the wdh.....