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thoughts on a missing ballast resistance wire and seeking better ignition

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Old 08-11-2017, 07:23 PM
eclectix eclectix is offline
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thoughts on a missing ballast resistance wire and seeking better ignition

regarding my 1968 f250 highboy flatbed (recently rebuilt to a fe 390), i am seeking up to date info on the following:

after struggling with what may have been an old and therefore potentially bad fuel pump by replacing, along with ensuring that a rubber fuel line to the carb was replaced by a steel line to avoid vapor lock and minimize fuel fire danger, a new struggle emerged: an extra ignition switch under the dash (installed with a newly (ie probably less than 800 miles) rebuilt engine, just to get stuff running again, and possibly involving difficulties with electric choke, my truck died a couple of evenings ago about 25 miles from home, with no results turning the ignition switch.

the problems turned out to be:

(1) an incorrect insertion of the extra (made in china) switch, which burned out after about 800 miles of use. the fix is to return the ignition wiring to stock ford spec.

(2) missing (pink? 1.4 ohm, unloaded?) ballast resistor wire. this (i was told) will lead to a burnout of my ignition coil, points and plugs within about another 400 miles. fixes include: (2f1: restoring the wire with another stock wire; 2f2: adding a O'Reilly Auto Parts BWD RU19 ~1.4 ohm ballast resistor; or 2f3: replacing the coil with a coil that has a built in resistor wire.

my personal thinking is that the manner in which the current situation was arrived at was because of a combination the usual lack of electrical familiarity among mechanics for older vehicles, plus someone before my time thought that it would be clever to eliminate the ballast wire when changing out an old ignition coil for a new one with a built in coil, and then the next guy was not aware of the ballast wire need and ballast wire removal, and replaced the subsequent ignition coil with a built in ballast resistor with a replacement ignition coil without any built in ballast resistor as per factory specification.

my own thinking would be to get and install the br19 ballast resistor (along with the other new stuff, though see below). that way, with the ballast resistor present, it is the functional equivalent of stock, and replacing the coil with a stock coil would work, so confusion is avoided.

a bonus suggestion i received along the way was to use some sort of pertronix coil(?)/ignitor(?) system. at a quick glance to pertronix website, i see a flamethrower coil and ignitors i, ii, and iii. i wonder which to choose (presuming any)? i should already have correct spark plug wires (though it is of course worth re-checking if i go this route). i was told that it *does* make a significant performance difference, especially the higher spark voltage.

finally i am on the fence about seeking money from my shop which did the engine re-install from the 360 to the 390. so far as i can tell, the other stuff works well and the price seemed reasonable to me at the time, though the wait was on the long side (several months). iirc, i was more apprehensive about much worse potential problems which at least so far have not surfaced. i had the exhaust headers, intake and carb upgraded at the same time as the engine.

i do enjoy actually driving the truck and using it for generic tasks. in generally, its running has improved over the years i have owned it since i first saw it, a farm field derelict for sale ~18 years ago.

thanks for any insights, and i hope folks will please pardon my lack of knowledge of these deep bumpside details.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:50 PM
matthewq4b matthewq4b is online now
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Alternatively instead of adding a ballast resistor just upgrade to a TFI coil they did not use a ballast resistor. Solves the problem all together and you get a hotter spark to boot.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:06 PM
eclectix eclectix is offline
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Originally Posted by matthewq4b View Post
Alternatively instead of adding a ballast resistor just upgrade to a TFI coil they did not use a ballast resistor. Solves the problem all together and you get a hotter spark to boot.
You are referring to the MSD Ignition 8227: MSD Blaster TFI Coil?

I wonder if it can it be used with a pertronix {i, ii, and/or iii} ignitor...

edit: supposedly in theory i could get a 65KV spark, though the max pertronix spec seems to be about 40KV spark. And in theory a higher voltage spark supposedly helps get better mileage/power.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by eclectix View Post
You are referring to the MSD Ignition 8227: MSD Blaster TFI Coil?

I wonder if it can it be used with a pertronix {i, ii, and/or iii} ignitor...

edit: supposedly in theory i could get a 65KV spark, though the max pertronix spec seems to be about 40KV spark. And in theory a higher voltage spark supposedly helps get better mileage/power.
I can't speak to the MSD Blaster TFI Coil but the Ford TFI Coil has no ballast resistor in the system. The Ford TFI coils are these ones (below). Easily scrounged off any late 80's SBF V8 then you get the mounting bracket and connector.


I can not see why the petronix could not be used as they are just switching the ground to the coil you can even use the TFI coils with points. Personally I do not know why any one would stick with the stock type bar core coil unless it was for appearance reasons. The TFI's are all position mounting and no ballast resistor required. I have used them successfully on many Duraspark installs and it beats the GM HEI system any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Not to offend any one but I laugh at people that spend big dollars on GM HEI style distributors for Ford engines when the same and better can be done with factory Ford parts.

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Old 08-12-2017, 04:05 AM
eclectix eclectix is offline
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Thanks.

I should mention that I am in a situation which places a premium on high reliability.

That being said, raiding a junkyard might not be the wisest thing for me to do.

Looking around, I saw a Pertronix Flame Thrower HC coil that puts out 60Kv.

It features a very low (0.32 ohm) internal resistance. I wonder what that implies for the need for a ballast resistance.

Pertronix says that it is designed for use with the Pertronix Ignitor III.

Amazon claims that customers often bought a MSD Street Fire 5520 with the Flame Thrower III. The 5520 apparently generates multiple sparks at low RPM. I am wondering if that implies better mileage and/or power and if it can be used with the Ignitor III.

By the way I found what seems to be a simple diagram for classic 60's ford ignition (for the MSD Blaster II, but somewhat generally applicable for coils that require a ballast resistance in some form or another):

Pertronix ballast resistor | For B Bodies Only Classic Mopar Forum

this in turn seems to be a simplification of the actual circuit, which in a 1968 mustang (for example, but might be similar if not identical to a bumpside, dunno) looks like this:

http://averagejoerestoration.com/wp-...g-charging.jpg

at the very least, there seems to be a lot of info to get lost in all this... i wonder if anyone else is using a HC or anything approaching it in terms of voltage output, and if they are seeing tangible results (especially gas mileage which is my perennial bugaboo for this truck).
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:00 AM
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You're thinking along the right lines but keep in mind ignition coils don't "put out" different voltage as such. There is a certain level of voltage necessary to jump the plug gap, usually around 10k volts. That's the voltage that will be drawn and no more, the rest is reserve. So a 60k volt coil and a 30k volt coil isn't going to make any difference in normal operation. Higher compression, wider plug gaps, leaner fuel mixtures, worn wires and plugs, etc will increase the voltage requirement.

What I've found is there is a lot of hype when it comes to ignition. It is very important no doubt, to have a good hot ignition, but the manufacturers hit that long ago. Even a stock mustard top ignition coil will give all the spark ever needed for whatever you can throw at it. Smokey Yunick did a lot of work for car makers in the 60s and 70s on fuel mileage concerns and he did mention that was one area where they couldn't really improve - stock OEM ignition.

The low resistance Flamethrower coils are for use with the Ignitor III modules. Be careful not to exceed the amperage rating of the primary circuit. With a standard Ignitor this is 8 amps.

It is important that the ignition has a fat hot spark, especially if you want to maximize mileage, so that means charging system is in good shape, good clean grounds, cables and connections.

Keep in mind if you hop up the ignition, it can start to arc internally with the old points style ignition, burn up rotors by arcing through to the distributor shaft. There is a limit. If you want to maximize fuel economy there's 2 broad areas you should focus on that will help.

Ignition timing curve in the distributor itself, and carburetor tuning using a wideband AFR meter w/ O2 sensor. That's where you'll make yer money, it is amazing how much fuel is wasted without any real noticeable change in performance. Spend your money there instead of a gee-whiz bang coil.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclectix View Post
Thanks.

I should mention that I am in a situation which places a premium on high reliability.

That being said, raiding a junkyard might not be the wisest thing for me to do.

Looking around, I saw a Pertronix Flame Thrower III TFI coil that puts out 60Kv.

It features a very low (0.32 ohm) internal resistance. I wonder what that implies for the need for a ballast resistance.

Pertronix says that it is designed for use with the Pertronix Ignitor III.

Amazon claims that customers often bought a MSD Street Fire 5520 with the Flame Thrower III. The 5520 apparently generates multiple sparks at low RPM. I am wondering if that implies better mileage and/or power and if it can be used with the Ignitor III.

By the way I found what seems to be a simple diagram for classic 60's ford ignition (for the MSD Blaster II, but somewhat generally applicable for coils that require a ballast resistance in some form or another):

Pertronix ballast resistor | For B Bodies Only Classic Mopar Forum

this in turn seems to be a simplification of the actual circuit, which in a 1968 mustang (for example, but might be similar if not identical to a bumpside, dunno) looks like this:

http://averagejoerestoration.com/wp-...g-charging.jpg

at the very least, there seems to be a lot of info to get lost in all this... i wonder if anyone else is using a HC or anything approaching it in terms of voltage output, and if they are seeing tangible results (especially gas mileage which is my perennial bugaboo for this truck).
No you do not need a coil from the wreckers but you will need the mounting bracket and wire connector. If I recall correctly the easiest TFI coil bracket to modify to keep the coil is is the TFI coil bracket off late 80's crown vics/grand marquis's but check other late 80's application to see if one would be easier to adapt.

I have never had a Ford TFI coil go bad to be honest used or not. But the genuine Motorcracft replacement coils are not expensive like $40..

Really the MSD systems only start showing a tangible benefits at higher RPM's and higher compression ratios it is a lot of money to spend for negligible to no gain on a near stock street driven engine. You would be better off spending that money on a wide ratio air fuel meter and dialing in the carb as Ted mentioned. Doing that will cost less than an MSD system and give you much bigger gains in terms of fuel economy and power plus you have the meter for tuning in other carb'd engines.

You asked about a solution for a no ballast resistor wire issue , installing a TFI coil is the easiest to solve that with the benefits of a hotter spark. It will mean swapping the cap and wires to a dura spark cap and wires. It a simple swap with factory bits and won't cost an arm and leg. Plus if something does crater you can get parts any where unlike replacing MSD bits.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:03 PM
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I say buy a Pertronix I or II and their coil. No points to replace. No condenser to go bad. And no resistance wire needed. Easy peasy.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:48 PM
eclectix eclectix is offline
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I say buy a Pertronix I or II and their coil. No points to replace. No condenser to go bad. And no resistance wire needed. Easy peasy.
IIUC, for the stock 1968 ford fe ignition circuit design:

* the function of the ballast resistor is to avoid damage to the coil and/or points while the motor is running with the ignition key switch in the run position.

* the stock 1968 ford ignition coil has an internal resistance of about 1.4-1.5 Ohms.

* the stock pink resistance wire has a resistance of about 1.4 Ohms.

* the "ignition key switch start position" voltage across the coil, points and plugs should be about 6 volts, due to much of the battery's amperage getting sucked off by the energy required to operate the starter motor.

* the "ignition key switch run position" voltage across the coil, points and plugs should be about 6 volts, due to the voltage splitting effect of the ballast resistance. the full ~13 V battery voltage is split about equally between the internal 1.4 Ohm coil resistance and the 1.4 Ohm ballast resistance.

Left to myself and the web, and given where the truck is at right now with a near-stock ignition circuit setup (note: i already had requested new high energy type spark wires during the rebuild install) minus the missing ballast resistance, I am slowly starting to converge on the pertronix ignitor ii electronic ignition system (which iiuc installs into the stock 1968 fe distributor) (?) (p/n 91281, $99.97), along with the option (?) of the pertronix flame thrower ii ignition coil (p/n 45011, $37.97, 45kV), for a total price of about $140.

this iiuc would advance the technology appropriately in the direction of better reliability, and avoid the need to install a ballast resistor.

iiuc, given this overall direction, coil alternatives would be:

* to use the stock mid- or late-1980s ford tfi coil (but that would require a mounting bracket, as noted earlier); or

* to use an accel 8140 coil ($28.34).

the accel coil is cheaper, but for another $9 i can keep to an all-pertronix parts upgrade, which (hopefully) simplifies potential maintenance and warranty issues.

i could also install a pertronix ignitor iii distributor and a pertronix iii ignition coil (60kV)(~$300),

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...rs-anyone.html

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...pressions.html

but it iiuc might be more expensive and not give me any significant additional performance or reliability, might mess with my tachometer (?), and might require the hassle of ignition timing "re-curving."

anyway, as zztop might say, "hmm, hmm, hmm / have mercy..."

for reference purposes, a better schematic than the 1968 mustang ignition schematic that i referenced earlier is here:

http://fordification.com/tech/wiring...350_master.jpg



edit:

reading here one opinion that pertronix iii will not make any big difference since my engine is likely to stay at 5k rpm or below most of the time:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...rtronix-3.html

Last edited by eclectix; 08-17-2017 at 07:46 PM. Reason: iirc -> iiuc
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:40 PM
eclectix eclectix is offline
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I sifted through the alternatives a bit more and settled on pertronix ignitor ii (#45111) and pertronix flame thrower ii (#91281) (black color option).

both of these parts are specific to a 1968 ford f-250 truck v-8 to a greater or lesser degree (or so i was told at the local parts shop counter). the ignition is obvious, and the coil insulation is epoxy, not oil, and so presumably resists the relatively high vibration that the fe-360 (and close relatives) put out. voltage of the coil on the coil box: 45000 volts. ohmage printed on the coil box: 0.6 ohms (less than i anticipated, but probably not significant).

i also got a keychain-type spark plug gap measurement tool.

cost

ignition $ 48
coil $118
sp gap tool $ 1.02
ca/local tax $ 16.45
-----------------
total $182.47

if anyone sees anything terribly wrong, please feel free to comment or PM. I will be out of town for a while and will not have time to work on it until i return, a few days from now.


Last edited by eclectix; 09-19-2017 at 06:47 PM. Reason: added photo
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:30 AM
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Looks good, send some pics when you get it all installed.
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Old 12-20-2017, 11:46 PM
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Looks good, send some pics when you get it all installed.
i got it all installed and was taking the truck on its first local errand before i left town for vacation. it had been sitting on the driveway with an unrelated dying battery problem (i got a new one on warranty and replaced it without incident). starting with about 10 miles on the new parts, the motor seemed to lose power across the RPM spectrum. at about the 15 mile mark, i lost all power and needed a push to get to the shopping center i was trying to reach. fortunately people are in the holiday spirit and my truck is (umm) colorful and so i made it to the shopping center parking lot without incident.

along the way i had noticed the problem and had topped off the fuel tank, just in case.

it had been running basically ok before the new parts, although with less power across the spectrum than i was expecting with all the changes associated with the rebuild and 360 ci -> 390 ci stroking.

i am currently thinking a(nother) bad vacuum advance (last replaced around 2007), OR ELSE, there is something wrong with the electrical/wiring that i had missed in one of the previous mods; that something wrong resulted in bad spark, which resulted in gunking up.

i am getting major league pressure to sell the truck based on incidents like this. i do not need this incident at this time.

aarrgghh!

the silver lining (if any) is maybe a chance to get to the bottom of why i am not seeing a appreciable power boost associated with the rebuild and stroking.

(i do believe i have the right parts, and the stock ballast wire replaced with ordinary non-resistive wire.)
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Old 12-21-2017, 12:19 AM
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There's going to be some teething issues with a 50 year old truck, if you're under "major pressure to sell it because of incidents like this", we can't help you with that. Sounds like a Spousal Unit isn't Happy. If Momma ain't Happy... well you know the rest. Cut your losses now. She can go back to her Momma.

It'd be nice to think whomever rebuilt the engine would have had it squared away to a high level before you picked it up. Did you get an itemization of all parts & labor? A warranty? Been there done that, I paid for a rebuild 20 years ago and the SOB didn't do a goddamn thing near as I can tell. Should probably kick his *** on general principles.

What I'm getting at though at is you'll need to do at least the final tuning - timing and carburetor, using different techniques. Simple stuff mostly. A vacuum gauge would tell a lot if you don't already use one.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:07 AM
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There's going to be some teething issues with a 50 year old truck, if you're under "major pressure to sell it because of incidents like this", we can't help you with that. Sounds like a Spousal Unit isn't Happy. If Momma ain't Happy... well you know the rest. Cut your losses now. She can go back to her Momma.

It'd be nice to think whomever rebuilt the engine would have had it squared away to a high level before you picked it up. Did you get an itemization of all parts & labor? A warranty? Been there done that, I paid for a rebuild 20 years ago and the SOB didn't do a goddamn thing near as I can tell. Should probably kick his *** on general principles.

What I'm getting at though at is you'll need to do at least the final tuning - timing and carburetor, using different techniques. Simple stuff mostly. A vacuum gauge would tell a lot if you don't already use one.
Thanks :-).

The rebuilder was Jasper. I got a warranty (about expired now) but no parts list and no power curve, despite asking for it. In any case it only seemed moderately (eg 10%-30%) less powerful than expected -- until now.

I just put in the vacuum gauge. Just before the engine died altogether, the vacuum gauge displayed going between 9psi (idle) and 20 psi (normal powered driving). I wonder what I should be looking for.

Another failure mode could be improper installation of the distributor thingie. Maybe some resistance has crept in to a contact somewhere-- either that, or something got burned up.
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Old 12-21-2017, 02:21 AM
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Have the Shop Manual?

They are real good about basic troubleshooting techniques and process of elimination, by dividing components or systems in half, "if this, then that, if not that, then this". By finding out what it ain't, we narrow things down quite a bit till eventually whatever remains has to be "it".

Start from scratch, back to basics, don't assume _anything_ is "good" or correctly installed. As in perform a compression test. Make sure the plug wires are installed in the correct firing order - you'd be amazed how often this mistake is made. Get the ignition and timing squared away and then work on carburetor tuning.
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