Week or so ago took the 93 E350 cutaway winnie to raystown and on the way there, decided to drop about a gallon of coolant on the highway, refilling from the fresh tank it magically stopped.

After arriving safely at the campsite I realized the thing had stop leak in it, and has for the 6 years I have owned it. In fact, the water pump and thermo were original. Someone in the past saw a leak, and poured in some really good stuff cuz I dropped the radiator coolant when I got it and refilled and it took 6 years 8K miles or so to open up.

So I swore when I got home off comes the front of the motor and I googled around for others that have the problem and lo and behold similar issues with F350/E350s running the big motor have cropped up, along with a lot of wives tales and magic bunnies so since I found info via google, I offer this, in case someone in the future needs the same.

First off, let me state that as a longtime ford truck owner (27 years) and GM factory trained, the 385 engine, specifically the 460 is a far superior TRUCK motor than the bowtie 454. It is designed from the ground up to do tremendously heavy things, albeit slowly. I would more sooner put 200K on a 460 towing every day, than I could from ANYTHING made today, including the 'used to be great but now suck wind' diesels.

BUT, the 460, and nay even the windsors have what I consider a design flaw that chevy didnt make: the timing cover and water pump area. On the ford motors, the water pump bolts to the timing cover and this makes for some hideously long bolts that are into water jackets. Contrast to a SBC or BBC where the pump is separate and always a no-brainer replacement.

I saw it written that the infamous bolt snapping (I snapped 3 and I have proper tools) is the result of coolant system neglect to which I reply: rubbish.

You could change the coolant in a 460 every other week and you would still have the problem. In fact, it would likely be worse.

The pump bolts (6 long 5 short) are 5/16-18 which is really kinda small for the length they have to hit. Granted, Ford has upgraded these to grade 5 but you have 5 prime candidates for snaps: the very top bolt is into the top of the aluminum timing cover and is open on the back. After a couple years you are GUARANTEED to snap this one off. Since it is open, it would be better to actually drill the top of the timing cover to 5/16 clearance and then you could use stainless, its only 15-21ftlb so stainless would hold with a backing nut.

The other 4 snap candidates are the long ones that reach into the block water jackets. These are able to corrode into iron AND with the seepage of coolant salts form a nice oxide plug in the timing cover passages. at 4.5 inches long, it does not take much torsional force to snap them off. Now the whole timing cover has to come off.

But this is where is gets fun, its a laquered in fiber gasket with grey iron, mild steel with zinc plating and aluminum and hardened steel bolts. Its a dang 4 way battery in there.

So lets fix it. My claim to automotive fame is bypassing factory service manuals and the hours of billed labor to take stuff apart in chunks. Of use to the layman, unless of course you own a shop and billed hours are the objective.

1) do not remove the alternator, air pump, ac or PS pulleys/pump. Just unbolt the aluminum brackets and move them aside. If you follow the book, you add another 3 hours plus an ac recharge and a new alt pigtail.

2) when you get the new pump and the new pump backing plate (more on that later) discard the cheap chinese gaskets and get the felpro set.

3) resist the urge to RTV the crap out of this. Permatex 3 is all you need. lacquer all sides.

4) chase all the holes with a bolt, NOT a tap. these are drilled and tapped by ford with maximum thread size hence minimum clearance, a 5/16-18 blind tap will actually remove metal, not just gunk.

5) you CANNOT get the new bolts at ford and you cannot get them at TSC. Goto your local tool and machinery supply house who has them in 1/4" increments. the long bolts had a larger head with a cast in washer the small bolts did not, it is ok to use washers on ALL, but watch clearance of the lower left (facing the engine) into the jacket bolt, it has a tight clearance on the alt/air pump bracket.

6) use grade 8. it will resist better the twist off and the process that makes it grade 8 will also make it less rustable.

7) the only curved hose avail for the water pump inlet to the oil cooler is INCORRECT. You will trim both the long side AND the short side. (3/4 inch and then 1/4 inch). AND the dayco and gates hoses are a tight squeeze - use wd40 to lube them on. You want to install this hose first, tighten the water pump side clamp then twist if on the cooler and lay the pump over attached so you can lacquer and install the gasket/plate/gasket.

8) when you remove the pump and break the last of the gasket seal, about a half pint *at least* of coolant will dribble into the oil pan. You cannot prevent it, so, be patient, let it sit a day and loosen the drain plug so the water drains out enuf that engine heat can steam off the rest OR just change the oil as the last step.

9) if you break or crack the timing chain cover like many do (I did) there is exactly 1 source for the part (unless you found a dusty NOS warehouse), sold under many names but sourced by dorman in china. It is listed to be for ALL models of the 429/460 but in reality is compatible with NONE. You will need to perhaps install a fuel pump block off (included) if you are a serp engine, you will perhaps need to drive the plug into the timing cover timing port and if your engine uses the metal pan gasket rail support, they drill the bottom pan bolts to 5/16-18 and give you 2 studs. It is much better to just clearance the pan and rail support for 5/16 and then use a 1 inch long 5/16-18 as the studs only present 1-2 threads to get the nuts on, and they will compress it, but not that much. As you know, a timing cover on fords means cut the pan gasket and use little pan tabs and a lot of RTV to make a corner seal.

9b) the seal that comes with the dorman part is junk compared to the felpro one in the timing set. discard it.

9c) you will find that EVERY part of this job is obsoleted at ford. they for the most part do not stock it and if they do get it for you, it comes from NAPA in a multi vendor box (i.e. it will say motorcraft, autocraft, gates etc) The previously mentioned backing plate is VERY hard to get. only 2 makers and not many in stock (I got the last one that summit had with new ones not due in until mid july). Some forget this plate. Do not. It will offset your belt by half a rib and it hinders the pump from creating a vortex. MY old plate is serviceable if I bead it so perhaps I will sell it at carlisle truck.

10) the pump is grey iron. paint it. unless you like rust colored stuff the next day....

11) replace all the hoses. I do not think it is possible to replace the cooler to pump hose with both installed, and the cooler cannot come out unless the accessory bracket is out.

12) replace all the o-rings for the oil cooler - face to block and banjo bolt. would suck to find an oil leak later....

13) drop the thermo temp to 180 from the factory 192. aint gonna make any emission difference, you will still go closed loop, you will still get nice and hot when working. In the case of my winnie, I am 10-12K lbs every day which is like a F350 pulling a good size boat every day. no such thing as slack time. And drill a couple 1/8 to 3/16 holes in the face. It adds at most 1 minute warmup time in the winter and who the frig drives a camper in the winter. The widemouth robertshaw that motorcraft originally sourced are nice, but getting hard to find. I myself am using a failsafe...if they overheat the permanently open wide.

14) cleanliness is next to godliness. clean EVERY surface and burnish EVERY hose connection, get the old coolant salts off there and flush the radiator. the 460 rads are huge and metal (at least in the van, the truck might have some plastic)

15) take your time. check and recheck every clamp and bolt. In the truck you have more room, but in the van, a lot of parts hit the floor just to get to it, I fully understand why its often an $800 bill (or more) for a pump.

16) save future time and trouble, seal or anti-seize EVERY bolt. I personally like GE PS92 or loctite PST77 but they are getting hard to find. and good ole permatex aluminum based anti-seize ESPECIALLY on the accessory bolts that go into aluminum.

Granted, the motors are 20 years out of print and unlike GM motors, aint rolling off Toluca Mex plant lines every day so I fear not too many are being worked on anymore...but if this helps....

 

A lot of good info.

 

Not sure if I'm the only one but I've taken off pumps and timing covers on three different truck 460's and never snapped a bolt. Seems excessive, but good info.

 

@quaddriver

Did you replace the timing chain and sprockets while you were in there?

 

sorry just saw this, no I didnt, I figured any slop was acceptable on a 1500 mile/year machine and face it, its running like its turbo charged. I know the idle control motor is freaky right now, needs a cleaning, but man its walking up hills pulling trailers

 

I took mine into a shop and they did it for a reasonable price. I had them do a bunch of other work while they had it including new springs, drag link, inner tie rod and 2 new tires on the front. I haven't gotten it back yet but they are doing an alignment tomorrow morning and I should be able to pick it up around noon. I had them check the timing chain and sprockets and they said it was all within specs and looked really good, like it had been replaced before now.


I am anxious to see how it rides with the new variable rate springs on the front (2WD) versus the old fixed rate OEM ones. They said it definitely came back to stock height and the truck is almost level front to rear now although the new springs will settle in over the next few weeks and probably come down about 3/4". That should provide the same amount of rake as it was when it was new. I have already replaced the rear springs and upgraded the upper overload to a 4-spring pack to help carry my 3,800 lbs truck camper. I certainly don't want any lift in the front since I haul heavy with it. I do have a 12,000 lbs winch that fits my front receiver that I mount when taking trips where I will be on dirt roads, so the springs should be stout enough to carry that load without sagging.

 

Jumping on here to get some help diagnosing my coolant leak. Yesterday morning walked out, smelled the antifreeze, saw the puddle under the truck and started trying to locate the leak. I was expecting some hose to be loose, checked all hoses and could not find the leak. followed the coolant from under the oil pan, up the driver side and then in between what I think is the water pump and whatever it mates to (see picture with red circle and yellow arrow). I'm just not sure if the leak is coming from the water pump or not. there is also some coolant on a bracket to the right of the oil filter in the video. Of course today its not leaking. I've checked the oil dipstick and no worries there. I just would like someone to look at my videos and picture and confirm my suspension. Thank you.

 

the aluminum timing chain cover can corrode,allowing coolant to leak down the front of the engine .a 460 rv engine I am working on had this problem,some one removed the thermostat to try and fix the over heating .

 

You need to pump it up with a radiator psi checker to know for sure.