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Comp XE256h and 972-16 springs if I remember his posts correctly
This is correct.
Comp Cams P/N: 32-241-4 (Comp Xtreme Energy 256H-10)
Springs are indeed 972-16 as listed above.
What bewilders me... is that the head was milled 0.008" as shown in the pic above. The block was decked, but typically this is not a large amount either... and yet the stock length pushrods are causing me greif... Surprising how much the geometry changes with just some small adjustments (as eluded to by everyone here and Mark. A. made a really strong point about it too).
Just surprising...
Fortunately for me I just got off the horn with a buddy that has a set of 4 different length adjustable pushrods + weaker springs for checking lengths. Going to borrow them from him in the next week or so. Looks like I'm in business!!!
Okay, so small update time.... As mentioned, I think I'm learning some of this "French"
So I yanked the valve covers again last night. But not before doing a HOT compression test. You guys likely won't be surprised, but now that the rocker arms are all tightened down, the compression numbers on the passenger side (right bank of the motor where the rockers were previously loose) have gone down...
What this tells me is that the valves truly aren't closing properly - which we already knew.... but these compression test numbers confirm it even moreso.
As you can clearly see, the compression numbers have gone DOWN since my last "adjustment" of the right bank (Cylinders #1-4) rocker arms. Remember those last Cylinder numbers I posted up??? Then remember how my pushrods weren't under the rocker arms either??? So I know what my cylinders can feasibly achieve when the valve is allowed to close properly... it's approximately 185 psi to 190 psi... which is excellent...
But now that I have the rockers tightened down (and no pushrods loose), the cylinder pressures went down, and there's a clear indication that each valve is leaking somewhat because after 5 minutes of leakdown, I'm losing 7 psi per cylinder on average...
So now on to the oil change... This is Oil Change #2! I'm running another 6.5 litres of Joe Gibbs HR2 (Hot Rod) 10W-30 oil + a WIX XP (51515XP) filter again.
Odometer @ Last oil change: 1012
Odometer @ This oil change: 1316 ----> 304 kms
Plug had some dark fine fine fine metal on it.
After 5 wipes on a shop towel:
Up close (you can see how the fine fine metal looks like it's "Fuzzy" or like "needles grouped together" in this photo... sorry for the bad picture!!):
Clean for comparison:
Cut the filter canister open with a utility knife being careful not to damage the filter media (ignore the oil pan drain plug in this photo... I dropped it on the floor accidentally after the photos above)
Comparison shot to the new filter (left) and 1316 km filter (right):
Opened her up nice and carefully with a box cutter.
Filter media BEOFRE squeezing the oil out.
AFTER squeezing the oil out (on the bench vice):
This is the largest particle I could find in the entire chunk of filter media (see the two small pieces together above my finger? They're shiny / silver in colour in the photo - the black material to the LEFT is off my hands):
This is the largest CLUSTER of metal I could find within the filter media. Look DIRECTLY above "Drop Forged" on the filter media. you'll see what I mean.
However... Keep in mind that the LARGEST particle and the CLUSTER of particles were 5 pleats worth of filter media APART from one another. Between those two locations there was ZERO metal. The above two identifications of metal in the filter media was the WORST I could possibly find over the entire piece of media... meaning as I looked around, I found less and less metal than what was posted above.
Here's the reference photo for the "5-pleats apart" explanation - The cluster was at my pointer and middle finger. The largest particle was at my thumb.
Given how dirty my motor was when assembled... is that a significant amount of metal??? Any opinions welcomed.
I still have the rest of the filter + 60% of the media remaining (I saved it this time...). So if we need more photos, I can certainly provide them.
Moving on....
After yanking the valve covers again, I reset all of the rocker arms using Mr. Tom Monroe's technique for counting number of turns required from NO SLACK (finger tight rocker bolt) to BOTTOMING OUT (the fulcrum against the pedestal).
Here are the results of me resetting EACH rocker bolt torque to 20ft-lbs again using the Cylinder firing order (1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8)... UGH This is lots of work.
Table Looks as such:
Cylinder #.... MAX Feeler @ last adjustment.... MAX feeler gauge @ current adjustment..... # of turns to go from NO SLACK to Fulcrum seated on pedestal.... #of turns to achieve 20ft-lbs AFTER fulcrum seated
So now.... Pushrod lengths... I have a wide array of numbers there on that table... And if I'm not mistaken.... the pre-load for the lifters should be in the realm of 0.090" for them to be pre-loaded in the DEAD MIDDLE of their pre-load range (range of 0.000" to 0.180").
What do YOU think about the new cranking pressure numbers ?
What do YOU think about the oil filter results ?
The preload range in the last sentence is wrong.
Now that you've tried the second method, what do YOU think of the numbers in column H, and are they within Tom's specs ?
It's lots of work, yes, but compared to University ?
When you have your engine dialled in and running with correct vacuum etc, you can look back and use the before, during, and after comparisons to confirm what you have learned from this experience.
Another vacuum number might be useful to you now that all 16 preloads are set correctly. (Correctly as in as correct as they can be right now.)
Haha, you're right, 0.090'' preload based on turns method.
When you wrote 0.000'' to 0.180'', I assumed you meant 0.010'' to 0.020'' based on the other method, and I remembered seeing only one set of figures like that.
I see that you're able to borrow adjustable pushrods. Nice.
Until now I was hoping that you could set the preloads without removing the intake, and then observe the vacuum reading.
I see page 118 says 'look at the lifter' using the turns method, so maybe it's best to remove the intake after all.
It's a shame you'll be losing the opportunity to see the 'new' vacuum readings based on preload changes alone, but I suppose we can't win them all.
Keep using your book and you'll know when idiots like me write crap !
Haha, you're right, 0.090'' preload based on turns method.
When you wrote 0.000'' to 0.180'', I assumed you meant 0.010'' to 0.020'' based on the other method, and I remembered seeing only one set of figures like that.
I see that you're able to borrow adjustable pushrods. Nice.
Until now I was hoping that you could set the preloads without removing the intake, and then observe the vacuum reading.
I see page 118 says 'look at the lifter' using the turns method, so maybe it's best to remove the intake after all.
It's a shame you'll be losing the opportunity to see the 'new' vacuum readings based on preload changes alone, but I suppose we can't win them all.
Keep using your book and you'll know when idiots like me write crap !
Haha no worries on the difference in measurement - I assume thats for a standard Ford lifter... which a Comp Cam lifter certainly is not the same...
Weird how Comp Cams does not list a pre-load range on their website for how much a lifter can be squished before its pre-load is maxed out.... Anyone know where to find that info? Tech line?
EDIT: I think it might be best to view the lifters while the intake is off - will certainly be easier to tell if the lifter is moving.
Question - when a lifter is unloaded from the pushrod, does it automatically reach its maximum travel (pump back up) on its own??? Or do you have to run the motor / fill the lifter with oil again before it will maximize its height (zero preload)?
Courtesy of google :How Hydraulic Valve Lifters Actually Work
A hydraulic valve lifter has four distinct parts, the check ball mechanism, body, socket and plunger. The plunger and socket move along with the push rod, and the body moves in conjunction with the cam. Riding in between the plunger and the socket is a spring and an oil cushion. The hydraulic valve lifter is pressurized by the oil gallery right at the start of motion in the engine. The pressure from the oil is only just enough to remove whatever clearance there is in the valve train, but not enough to actually open the hydraulic valve itself. The cam pushes on the hydraulic valve lifter's body in order to actually open the valve. The spring holds the check ball in its place, and the hydraulic valve lifter's motion opens the check ball cavit,y leaving the check ball behind, but only for a second or so. Then, the cam pushes the hydraulic valve lifter body forward, and the push rod holds the plunger in place while the check ball cavity gets smaller. The check ball is held in place by the support spring, and oil pressure in the cavity forces the check ball to move forward, and that closes the check ball cavity. This traps oil in the check ball cavity and makes the plunger assembly move with the hydraulic valve lifter body, and then that moves the push rod and opens the hydraulic valve. The oil pressure inside the check ball cavity prevents the spring inside from compressing further. The cam then finishes its rotation, and the spring makes the hydraulic valve lifter body go back to the rest position on the base circle of the cam. The check ball isn't under a lot of pressure then and is ready to be shoved into the spring by the oil pressure, which lets in oil into the check ball cavity and starts the whole cycle again.
The lifters act exactly the same as solid lifters when 'pumped up'.
The preloads should be the same regardless of manufacturer.
The lifters need to be 'unloaded' when setting the preload. (You'll feel and see the rod pushing the lifter down.)
Zero preload means the plunger in the lifter is not being forced down, and you know you want 0.090'' travel.
When the lifter is 'pumped up' it will force the valve to move that 0.090'' instead of 0.000'' zero preload.
I hope you understand that little bit of French. LOL
Those metering rates are "semi revised" if I remember correctly. Comp built longer pistons into the lifters to 'slightly' restrict oiling to rockers at high RPM. Im trying to remember where I was going with this but I completely brain farted.
Courtesy of google :How Hydraulic Valve Lifters Actually Work
A hydraulic valve lifter has four distinct parts, the check ball mechanism, body, socket and plunger. The plunger and socket move along with the push rod, and the body moves in conjunction with the cam. Riding in between the plunger and the socket is a spring and an oil cushion. The hydraulic valve lifter is pressurized by the oil gallery right at the start of motion in the engine. The pressure from the oil is only just enough to remove whatever clearance there is in the valve train, but not enough to actually open the hydraulic valve itself. The cam pushes on the hydraulic valve lifter's body in order to actually open the valve. The spring holds the check ball in its place, and the hydraulic valve lifter's motion opens the check ball cavit,y leaving the check ball behind, but only for a second or so. Then, the cam pushes the hydraulic valve lifter body forward, and the push rod holds the plunger in place while the check ball cavity gets smaller. The check ball is held in place by the support spring, and oil pressure in the cavity forces the check ball to move forward, and that closes the check ball cavity. This traps oil in the check ball cavity and makes the plunger assembly move with the hydraulic valve lifter body, and then that moves the push rod and opens the hydraulic valve. The oil pressure inside the check ball cavity prevents the spring inside from compressing further. The cam then finishes its rotation, and the spring makes the hydraulic valve lifter body go back to the rest position on the base circle of the cam. The check ball isn't under a lot of pressure then and is ready to be shoved into the spring by the oil pressure, which lets in oil into the check ball cavity and starts the whole cycle again.
The lifters act exactly the same as solid lifters when 'pumped up'.
The preloads should be the same regardless of manufacturer.
The lifters need to be 'unloaded' when setting the preload. (You'll feel and see the rod pushing the lifter down.)
Zero preload means the plunger in the lifter is not being forced down, and you know you want 0.090'' travel.
When the lifter is 'pumped up' it will force the valve to move that 0.090'' instead of 0.000'' zero preload.
I hope you understand that little bit of French. LOL
Originally Posted by LiquidCowboy
Those metering rates are "semi revised" if I remember correctly. Comp built longer pistons into the lifters to 'slightly' restrict oiling to rockers at high RPM. Im trying to remember where I was going with this but I completely brain farted.
Thanks to both for the explanation.
I think were you were going with that LC, is that the lifters I have in the truck probably have a larger travel distance to set the preload on the lifter.
Again, more internet folklore from me... but we'll see what you guys think...
One of the easier ways to tell how much preload the lifters can take is to have a lifter fully collapsed (pre-loaded), make a scribe mark on the push rod with a straight edge against the valve cover mating surface as a reference.... then undo the rocker assembly, and let the lifter go back to its zero-preload state, and make another mark with a scribe and straight edge on the pushrod again. The distance travelled will be the total preload (two scribe marks on the push rod).
I should probably get this figure before I try and order any parts...
EDIT: This was also a very interesting thread to read through - very similar issues to what I'm having, but it sounds like he can pull the valve covers faster than I can LOL
Phone your lifter supplier, give 'em the part number, and ask 'em if you have to do any modifications to the lifters.
When they say no, you can continue, simple as that.
No need to measure lifter travel unless you're curious.
You have the adjustable rods to assist in determining your new rod lengths required.
Or you can try shims or the adjustable kit.
Didn't read the link coz you don't have issues !!
You just have to set up the valve train coz it's never been done.
This was mentioned in a previous post and it was mentioned in the Monroe book - accounting for the preload measurement when ordering new pushrods that is. The reason I want the number is to be able to get the pre-load exactly at the middle of the lifter travel when I account for it with new pushrod lengths - but I need to know what the total travel number is to do that.
Quick checking and this is most likely the longer of the articles involving preload. I also pulled specs from crane and Ford. Didn't see anything from comp though. These are in agreement that .020-.060 preload is nominal
10-16-2018, 11:39 AM
This is lots of work.
