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Axle Wrap or Bad Clutch?

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Old 06-17-2017, 03:55 PM
Inline66 Inline66 is offline
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Axle Wrap or Bad Clutch?

Hey guys, I need some opinions on where to go with this problem. On my 66 F100 2wd/3 speed manual/240, I'm getting a terrible shaking of the whole truck when I try to start off in 1st gear or reverse. I can start of in 2nd with only a slight vibration, and once moving I can shift into 2nd or 3rd with no problem. If I'm on a hill with a little rolling start, I can start off in 1st ok too.

Now, this happened once in a great while before, but never this severe. I figured that was just my driving. It started up like this after replacing my leaf springs (I did the front coils too, just not at the same time). I checked the pinion angle, and it's even/opposite the transmission and about 5* down from the driveshaft angle. The old leaf springs were very old and sagging, and the u bolts were loose on one side. The old springs had a helper spring on one side. The new ones are the same style, 4/1 with 950 lb capacity. I did not transfer over the helper spring. Here are the springs I used:
​​​​​https://www.generalspringkc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=43-419

After this problem started, I replaced the driveshaft support bearing (carrier bearing) and all 3 joints with no improvement. The support bearing seemed ok, but the rubber was long gone.

It's possible that my clutch is bad. It only has about 4k miles on it, but the transmission was misaligned for the first 2000. Also, the oil pan gasket was leaking right above the rear main seal for some time (now fixed). This does seem like the symptoms of a bad clutch. Is it possible that it's been bad and was somehow masked by the old saggy springs? Any an all suggestions are appreciated!
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:00 PM
Inline66 Inline66 is offline
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I can see that you're all stumped, so here's some more info. It's wheel hop/axle wrap, confirmed on video. I tried some leaf spring clamps right in from of the axles and it improved a little. I moved them forward about 6" and it improved a little more. If I'm very careful I can actually drive the truck now. But uphill I'm still screwed. The question is, what else can I do? And is this purely a suspension problem or could it still be a bad clutch?

Here's a video going uphill after the clamps were installed:


​​​​
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:58 PM
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Interesting. I have pretty much the same issue with my '65 and have suspected the carrier bearing- apparently from reading your report that's not it.
I installed a cheap clutch a few years back after I'd had the Borg-Warner trans rebuilt and it didn't affect the problem at all. I've considered replacing it with a higher quality unit.
The truck's very driveable but does shudder on take off unless the clutch pedal is handled judiciously.
rx
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:17 AM
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If you got oil on the disc it is ruined regardless of how few miles are on it. The oil makes it grab instead of slip. It is especially bad with organic discs as they tend to absorb oil more than a carbon or ceramic disc. My theory is that the new leaf springs are too stiff to absorb the shock like the old ones did, transferring the shock loads directly to the chassis. Just a theory based on your account however.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:40 AM
'65Ford '65Ford is offline
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Excellent video though my money is on a clutch problem.

Definitely worth a second look at the springs, but I tend to think something would be about to fall apart in the springs to make them shake like that. And I thought wheel hop occurred when you're spinning tires.

A little oil or antifreeze on a clutch disc will definitely make it grabby like that.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:35 PM
Inline66 Inline66 is offline
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Thanks guys. I did double check the springs, I actually kind of loosened everything up and reinstalled them to make sure I hadn't messed anything up. I'm thinking I'll try a new clutch. I put an 11" on the first time, but now that I understand the difference I think 10" might be better. I really don't load the truck or tow with it. Would that help my situation? Or should I just keep the pressure plate I have and get another 11" friction plate? If I swap the whole kit for 10", I could go to the diaphragm style instead of the 3 fingers.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:27 PM
'65Ford '65Ford is offline
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I don't think the size matters too much. Hopefully the problem will present itself once you get in there. Any leaking oil or antifreeze will have to be dealt with and then inspect/surface the flywheel and pressure plate and of course a new disc. Perhaps the pressure plate got damaged somehow or is defective.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:32 PM
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Don't go smaller! Just stick with the stock size, it will last longer.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:46 PM
F-ONE F-ONE is offline
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Possibly worn spring hangers. Slack around the bolt and bushing will do this. Oiled or rusty clutch can do this too.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:20 PM
Inline66 Inline66 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-ONE View Post
Possibly worn spring hangers. Slack around the bolt and bushing will do this. Oiled or rusty clutch can do this too.
Do you mean the shackles? Those are new, so are all the bolts and bushings. Not the brackets attached to the frame, but those were in good shape with no elongation to the bolt holes. I'm going clutch. I ordered a new 11" friction plate. I'll get that replaced, check the pressure plate, and probably have the flywheel resurfaced and see what happens. I'll also take care of the one leak that's left on the push rod cover gasket. I don't think that one was reaching the clutch, but good to get everything sealed up. I already addressed the oil pan gasket and some coolant leaks I had.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66v8baby View Post
My theory is that the new leaf springs are too stiff to absorb the shock like the old ones did, transferring the shock loads directly to the chassis. Just a theory based on your account however.
This makes no sense, because when these trucks were new, the springs were stiff as a board.

When I bought my '65 new, the clutch didn't slip, because there was no greasy paw prints or oil on the clutch disc.

Once grease or oil gets on the disc, it's his-tor-ee!
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberDummy View Post
This makes no sense, because when these trucks were new, the springs were stiff as a board.

When I bought my '65 new, the clutch didn't slip, because there was no greasy paw prints or oil on the clutch disc.

Once grease or oil gets on the disc, it's his-tor-ee!


The clutch does slip just momentarily as the pressure is being released or applied (not once it is fully engaged), that's how it's designed to work. If it didn't it would be an on/off switch and not very fun to drive. Think about what happens when you ride the clutch. You allow the clutch to slip (wearing it out much sooner) to allow some transfer of power but not 100%. If the clutch is sticking this will cause the truck to shudder and possibly die.


Now the OP has new leaf springs that are once again stiff as a board, so if the clutch grabs it transfers the shock directly into the chassis. Cooked oil grabs.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:59 AM
Inline66 Inline66 is offline
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Makes sense to me. I'll let you guys know what happens.
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:45 AM
F-ONE F-ONE is offline
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I meant the brackets/hangers not the shackles. If no elongation was noted and no slack in the bushings, you should be fine there.

Check the U joints.

Now for the clutch.....

To do this right you'll need to get the flywheel inspected, surfaced and or replaced. Sometimes for lack of a better term, oil on the clutch can "burn up" the flywheel and pressure plate. This is evident by blue spots and timy hairline cracks. If it's cracked or crsytalized, the flywheel is history. If you put a new clutch on a burned flywheel it"s only a matter of time before it"s back to what you have now.
A clutch shop or machine shop can surface the flywheel and pressure plate. They can also rebuild your old plate if need be. It's a good idea to have all this matched up by a shop. These shops used to be common. If there is not one in your area just do the best you can and replace with new parts if cracks or heat damage is evident. Still the best practice is to have both the new flywheel and pressure plate trued.

You may can get by with just a new friction disk but both the flywheel and plate should
look very very good.

Unfortunately a oily clutch is sometimes/usually caused by a leaking rear main seal. A rear main commonly fails because the bottom end needs an overhaul. Sometimes a new seal will last so will the clutch.....sometimes not.

You know the truck....it"s a lot of work just to have go out again in 6 months.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:38 AM
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In the initial post Inline66 states the oil leak has been fixed. Certainly if the root cause has not been determined and corrected then a new disc will be going out in short order.


Otherwise, the recommendations are sound; the flywheel must have a good surface as well as the pressure plate.
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