I know this question has been asked a million times in these forums, but honestly it's all starting to run together and it seems that it is very dependent on the individual situation. So here's mine.

I'm helping a young man with a 1981 F150 4x4 with a 351 Windsor motor and 2bbl Holley Carb and 4-Speed Manual Transmission. The truck belonged to his father who died while serving our country about 12 years ago. He will be 15 soon and we want to get the truck in shape as, of course, he will be driving soon. The truck had been sitting for a while because it just stopped running, a problem that plagued his dad even when he was driving it. We tracked the trouble to some kind of short in the electronic ignition system and got it running again, but it is not reliable since we didn't find exactly what is shorting so the problem comes and goes. We have decided to rip out the entire system and replace it.

Here is what we have:
Block Casting: D9AE-6015 (1979 Full Size)
Head Casting: D8OE-AB (casting date Feb 21, 1978)
Intake Manifold: RF-E1AE-9425-FA (1981)
When they bought the truck they were told it was a new motor, but obviously it is a rebuild and the quality of the work is questionable to me based on some of what I have seen. As far as I can tell everything is stock. We have already removed all the old ignition system and the intake manifold, ready to start rebuilding the top end. We'll run compression tests today.
Trying to work on a budget of about $1,600. May need to defer some things out for later to stay in budget.

Here is what we want:
A reliable vehicle that's good for the street and off roading so low to mid range torque and hp. Don't want to just go back stock so looking at replacing at least the Cam and Intake along with the lifters and springs and other necessary parts. Probably need to replace the heads as these seem to be the heads people say to avoid in regards to any real performance. I would like to put parts in that he would not have to replace in the future if he decides to do more improvements and beef things up more.

Here is what we are thinking of doing and where we need lots of help.
IGNITION: MSD Ignition system. MSD 6 Series? Which distributor is best?
INTAKE: Edelbrock Performer Intake?
CAM: Xtreme 4 x 4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft? Part# 35-239-3, Grind# X4262H (Duration 218/226 at .050 lift, Lift .493/.512, LSA 111) There are four different grinds in this Cam with different duration and lift, do we want more duration or more lift?
LIFTERS: Hydraulic Flat Tappet? Which ones? Probably get them as a kit with the Cam?
TIMING CHAIN/GEARS: Double Roller? Which one?
HEADS: Don't think we can afford to go aftermarket here. Can anything be done with what we have to improve them. If we can find some Ford cast heads at a reasonable price it would be better to swap.
EXHAUST: Leave stock for now due to budget constraints, but what would be a good application when we can change them later?
CARB: Holley 3310 4bbl square bore 750CFM (I have this sitting around already)
I'm sure I've forgotten something here.....

This is my first time working on Ford. I've done lot's of work on Chevy's and a few others so I'm not a total newby, but no where near an expert.

Please, I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on what they would do with this motor. Are any of my suggested parts in the ballpark for what we want to do? Will they work well together? Will this stay somewhat future proof? We are ready (and eager) to start buying parts.

I will post the compression test numbers tonight. Thanks for any help.

 

Okay, we did a compression test and I don't think it looks good. This was a dry test with the engine cold. Six of the eight were between 95-100, one is at 85, one is at 45. I'm going to redo again tomorrow after I give the battery a good charge, hoping maybe I just didn't crank long enough. I'll wet test the one at 45 and see what we get.

 

IMHO.......

IGNITION: MSD Ignition system. MSD 6 Series? Which distributor is best?
MSD= Missing Spark Discharge....if you are looking for an upgrade, go with an HEI setup, for high end, look at Pro-M for their COP system.

INTAKE: Edelbrock Performer Intake?
With regards to manifolds, the Edelbrock Torker II (IIRR) manifold is a near duplication of the Shelby manifolds used in the 60's. RPM band is from 1500-6500 rpm (IIRR) and will easily handle up to 750 cfm. How they compare to the new air gaps, I don't know but the performer intake will not really provide as much benefit as what they state- but check with their Tech Dept. since things do change over time.

A dual plane intake is typically the best design for street use. The dual plane system allows for max atomization of fuel air at low & high CFM flows. Single planes are streetable, but typically are designed for track, high RPM use where max atomization is achieved at high CFM flows, most have very large runners and are more commonly called "open plenums", typically, low rpm drivability/tuning is difficult.

CAM: Xtreme 4 x 4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft?

Avoid like the plague!!!!!!!!!!!!! Comp is a mass production (McDonald's type) company which - seems to have experience more cam lobe failures than most and places the blame on just about anything but themselves and it cycles...cams, then valve spring failure, etc.

I highly recommend Iskenderian (who I personally know to this day physically tests/inspects every single valve spring before it leaves the shop) & Chet Herbert & Lunati...all are family owned, been grinding cams for decades, and both will even re-grind your oem cam if possible- saving you even more $.

To validate this point further as to the “McDonald’s environment” of which Comp Cams operates:

Tech Support Issue:
Comp Cams Bad Tech Support Blew my Engine

Valvetrain Failure:

Classic Cam Failure:
More issues....lets talk cam failure - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board

Cam Lobe Fracturing:
Cam lobe failure analysis - Yellow Bullet Forums

Cam Failure:
Comp cams failure. - Team Camaro Tech

FAIL Comp cams trunion- Rockwell hardness low:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...n-upgrade.html

2nd Cam Failure:
After the second Comp failure . . .

Major problems with Comp Cams hydraulic roller lifters :
Major problems with Comp Cams hydraulic roller lifters

COMP CAMS FAIL (endless)
COMP CAMS FAIL - TrueStreetCars.com

Comp Cams Ultra Gold Aluminum Roller Rocker Failure
Comp Cams Ultra Gold Aluminum Roller Rocker Failure - LS1GTO.com Forums

Comp Cams 918 spring failures
Comp Cams 918 spring failures !!!! - CamaroZ28.Com Message Board
Cam Failure:
Comp cam - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com

LIFTERS: Hydraulic Flat Tappet?
Buy from the cam grinder a complete kit. Although mechanical is much more accurate, hydraulic in a street engine is IMHO the way to go....quiet, performs well and adjust the valves once and your goo to go unlike mechanicals....depending on lift/duration, you'll be pulling valve covers to adjust the valves every 5-10k miles.

TIMING CHAIN/GEARS: Double Roller? Which one?
Cloytes nylon coated double roller

HEADS: Don't think we can afford to go aftermarket here.
If your heads are in good shape, just needing a rebuild, yes, you can probably get almost the same performance (as long as you are not turning over 5K rpm) for a lot less $ than the al heads will cost.

The oem heads are very, very capable of supporting up to 300+ hp...is it the most cost effective, not always however, with just about every one of the popular cylinder head (aftermarket) mfg going to china for their production, the quality is absolutely terrible...resulting in valvetrain failures, seat failures, etc. Please don't think for one minute, that any of the mail-order crap today is really worth the $ in comparison to buying a set of al heads and having them machined & built yourself.

EXHAUST: Leave stock for now due to budget constraints, but what would be a good application when we can change them later?

Headers will help greatly, and in all reality, there are little differences in overall performance between shorties (Tri-Y), mid-length & long tube headers.....shorties actually perform excellent up to about 5500 rpm and then will have a slight drop until 6k rpm when it begins to really decline.....more than enough for street use and much better than oem manifolds.

Remember, you get what you pay for............In general, the head plate should be at least 3/8" (1/2" is best), tubing should be at least 16 gauge (14 is best).....otherwise leaks and burn-though are going to be a problem as well as the longetivity of the headers.

CARB: Holley 3310 4bbl square bore 750CFM (I have this sitting around already)
Yes but it is a tad big for your engine, but with a little tuning it should work just fine.
I'm sure I've forgotten something here.....

 

Thanks Beechkid for the detailed reply and for the heads up on Comp Cam and MSD. This is exactly the kind of info I need to help make a decision.

Question, the parts you recommended, are those not more for a racing setup versus an off-road and street build? I think we're looking more for the torque in the lower rpm range. I haven't had a chance to check these out yet, just kind of remember the Torker II being a racing intake.

Thanks for all the information. I'm still consuming it all.

 

Here's my 2 cents, if you want lowend torque there are 2 things you need, decent compression and a relatively short duration cam. All stock this motor has a short duration cam but it's a little small considering how restrictive the heads are, and compression is low at 8.3:1. To that end this motor need 3 things, pistons with less dish than stock, cylinder heads with smaller chambers than stock, and a cam with 255-265 degrees seat to seat duration(200-210 duration at 0.050" lift) and somewhere around 1/2" lift. For heads the obvious choice is a set of iron GT40s, these flow 25% better than the stock smog heads and have smaller chambers, combined with some zero deck height pistons and you should be able to achieve a static CR somewhere around 9-9.5:1 which will be about a full point above stock but still safe for pump gas. Better flowing heads aren't just for making horsepower though, they allow more air into the motor at lower rpms too so torque output also increases.

So if it were me I'd spend the money on those basic engine parts and not on fancy distributors or ignitions systems.. the stock Duraspark system is more than capable of doing the job here.
Intake. You want a dual plane but the Eddy Performer is pretty much the same as the stock 4bbl which is to say nothing special.
Carb: You're building a 300hp motor more or less so you only need 500-600cfm and it'll spend most of it's time on the primaries so use something that doesn't have garbage can sized primaries and does have vacuum secondaries.
Exhaust: Stock manifolds are pretty bad and will impact the results you get here.. longtubes will maximize your gains but shorties are the next best option.

 

Thanks for the 2 cents @Conanski! I'd happily take 25 cents worth.

I ran a wet compression test on the two low cylinders and they both improved going from 85 up to 100 and from 45 up to 65. I ran a wet test on a cylinder that was at 100 and it had no improvement. I believe that means having to pull to block to do it right.....only I don't think that is in his budget. We will need to explore other options. Is 95-100 PSI normal on this engine? Is it because of the large chamber D8OE heads or something more serious?

What is your opinion on a specific intake, cam, and ignition for this build? The stock intake is for a 2 barrel, which is why I was thinking the Eddy Performer, but are there better ones out there?

I'm suspect of the stock Cam that is in there because I'm suspect of the general quality of the last rebuild and when we had it running it ran better with the firing order in the 302 order versus the 351 order? Would like to replace the Cam when we're in this deep anyway. Any manufacturer specific you would recommend or any to keep away from?

The ignition must be replace at the very least. It is the EEC-III, duraspark 3, California emissions junk. It was the cause of the no start problem in the first place having a short somewhere that was intermittent. We have already ripped it all out. What do you think about MSD? Are there others you have found that you like better?

Thanks again,
John

 

Hi- while they can be used in light/part time street/strip racing, they are really just very good quality components that will work very good for you.

 

Agree here as well..........

 

I believe that means having to pull to block to do it right?
Not always. need to check the cylinders to see their condition and check for roundness

Just an FYI on cam grinder............ Considering the cam has such critical importance to the engines performance and life, to me it makes sense to use a cam grinder who will talk with you directly- even modify the cam grind to fit your needs even better. With regards to price...the difference is nil- especially considering its cheap insurance to know exactly who is machining such a critical part for your engine. And remember, advertised lift/duration/lobe separation is just that- advertised and not the specific grind including ramp profile that is used on the cam. The cam grinder will be able to make the best recommendation for you, just provide them with the engine, differential gears, what tranny you are using, how you are going to be using the vehicel and they will provide a wealth of info and include intake recommendations or they may just say, have this machine work done to you intake, head, etc.......

The ignition must be replace at the very least..

The davis HEI units are very good and IIRR are EEC compatible......but, the Duraspark is an excellent unit......might just need a rebuild and you are good to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, as we were contemplating what to do today we ran across a 351w not far from us being sold for $2,300. With only 1,600 miles since rebuild we are thinking of making the leap and just replace the whole thing at once then sell what we have to recoup some of the cost. (if we can find the extra $$) Here are the specs on the engine:

- Ported E7TE heads
- .040 block machined
- Balanced and polished crank
- Stainless valves
- Lunati VooDoo cam - 262/268 Adv. #10350702
- Comp lifters and springs
- Smith Bros. pushrods
- Keith Black pistons
- Total Seal rings
- High volume mechanical fuel pump
- Cloyes double roller timing set
- ARP hardened distributor shaft
- Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold
- Melling oil pump
- Hedman Elite Ceramic Coated headers - #88658 1-1/8
- Ford Motorsports high profile aluminum valve covers
It comes with SFI flex plate, water pump pulley, crank pulley, motor mounts, alternator brackets, PS bracket, and ignition wires.

Would still need to deal with the ignition. Thanks BeechKid for the info on DUI I'm taking a serious look at those.

Comments please. Does this look like a good deal? Is this a good enough setup for a truck application?

 

Looks good to me!!!!!!! Just inspect extremely well !!!!!!!!!!!

 

I thought it looked good too, but I was a little too slow pulling the trigger and someone beat me to it by a few hours. Now I'm trying to find a trustworthy shop where I can have the short block done or exchange for a short block. I know there's nothing near me.....too far from the big city. Need a good shop in Northern California, or that will do shipping, that folks have had good luck with.

I see shops online, like on ebay and google searches, and many say they've been in business for like thirty years, but I don't know that I trust any of them without hearing from folks who have actually used them.

Anyone with a recommendation?

 

John, you might try posting ? to your local chapter of FTE. Good luck with it!!!

 

Excellent idea fuzzybob. Thanks. I'll do that.

My next question now is recommendations on rebuild kits or parts so I don't end up with junk stuff. I know there's a lot of crappy parts out there. Which ones are good and which ones are to be avoided?

 

Broader Performance


PATC


Oregon Performance Transmission


I've ordered parts from all three of these outfits with no problems. They all have web sites.