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Injectors HPOP or tune?

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  #1  
Old 03-09-2017, 09:42 PM
Chevota_72
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Injectors HPOP or tune?

So I have a 2002 7.3 Excursion and I think it is low on power. ICP is falling on its face when on a 60 or 80 HP tune. I have some boost leaks at the plenums and will work on that but that shouldn't cause my ICP to tank at full throttle. Following are some numbers I pulled with WOT runs up a 6% grade.

16PSI BOOST
EXHAUST PRESSURE 40
ICP 1900
80%IPRDC
this is with the 60 or 80HP tune on my DP-tuner. If I ease into the throttle I get
2700 ICP with
45%IPRDC
but if I stomp on the throttle it stumbles and ICP tanks.
Running the stock tune I can maintain
2700ICP at
40-45%IPRDC

Is this my HPOP being weak, or worn out injectors, to much of a tune or a combo of all three?
 
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:04 AM
ranagent
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How old is your oil? The 7.3 doesn't like broken down oil to much.
 
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  #3  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:30 AM
Chevota_72
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Oil is less than 1000 miles old and is Rotella synthetic 5w-40.
 
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:51 AM
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You are describing the lead-up to a "Stinky Spike". [LINK] You can log your data and conduct tests to confirm.
 
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:32 AM
Chevota_72
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I do have a spike when I let off the throttle. I will check FIPW when I get a chance to work on it. From what I gather in Tuglys thread is it probably is a combo of all three. The numbers on Tuglys 80HP tune before he changed his HPOP are almost identical to mine.
Tuglys since you have been through so much on your truck what do you suggest? The vehicle has 145000 on it and I don't know the maintenance history in it as we just bought it about a year ago.
 
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:43 PM
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I would first get it back to stock - as disappointing that is to drop from a tune. Make sure everything is 100%, then revisit the tuning again when you are confident all is well and you have the gauges to cover the seat of your pants while it's playing dynamometer. The flavor of the year is the Hydra chip, because it's easier to jump ship to a different tune provider if you are uncomfortable with your current one.

That was the route I took, and I like the results.
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:28 AM
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The truck in my sig used to have the same spikes for the same reason that your truck has them and Rich's truck had them. As Rich stated, fix those boost leaks first and then anything else that is not healthy and then return it to stock tuning and see what happens with the logs.

I'll bet it isn't your HPOP. The problem wasn't my HPOP either even though that is what was diagnosed.

I tried a Hydra with Gearhead tunes and the problem went away in the amount of time it took to plug the chip in and has been gone for years. I keep waiting for it to return but it hasn't yet.

Be advised that in your current situation with low ICP accompanied with ICP spikes and boost leaks your EGT's may be dangerously high. FIPW
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Chevota_72
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Yeah I think the tune has a lot to do with it. I want this rig to be reliable and have decent performance. I am a little concerned about the condition of my injectors because after doing a cup job I couldn't build enough ICP to fire the truck and found two injectors dumping air out of the oil deflectors while pressurizing the oil rails with shop air. I pulled them apart and cleaned them and they resealed but it doesn't give me a good feeling about the shape they are in. I plan to buy either irate or riff raff plenums to take care of the boost leaks, and with close to 150000 on the odometer I'm sure the HPOP isn't perfect either and it needs to come out for the leaking non-serviceable plug. So I am faced with iffy injectors a high pressure oil pump that needs to be removed to be resealed and am wondering if it shouldn't just be replaced with a T500 while I have it out,and a tuner that may be compounding my issues.
What suggestions does everyone have on NEW injectors for towing 8-10k LBS and still have a little fun when unloaded?
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 05:18 PM
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What makes you think your plenums are leaking? Have you built or used a boost leak detector? If not, it is well worth your time, (about 20-30 mins) and investment, less than $20.

150k miles is nothing for a HPOP. With the symptoms you describe, It is not your HPOP. It is the FIPW. Period.

Below is a thread from the guy who taught many tuners to write tunes who then may have forgotten some or all of what they learned.

The relation between Injection Pulsewidth and Loss of ICP - PowerStrokeNation : Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 06:11 PM
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Yes I have pressure checked the plenums and they are leaking. I know there is no smoking gun here with it just being the HPOP but just gathering info if people think it is a combo of different worn components.

Going off of Richs numbers before his T500 increased his ICP by almost 700, that is a significant gain, my throttle down numbers are almost identical except I don't spike near as high as his making me wonder about my HPOP. Also my IPRDC in stock was climbing higher than his to maintain 2700 ICP.

I have thought about holding off on the HPOP for now and focusing on finding some new injectors.

Also have thought about keeping the Infinity for monitoring and running a Hydra for tuning.

Thanks for all the help.
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chevota_72 View Post
Yes I have pressure checked the plenums and they are leaking. I know there is no smoking gun here with it just being the HPOP but just gathering info if people think it is a combo of different worn components.

Going off of Richs numbers before his T500 increased his ICP by almost 700, that is a significant gain, my throttle down numbers are almost identical except I don't spike near as high as his making me wonder about my HPOP. Also my IPRDC in stock was climbing higher than his to maintain 2700 ICP.

I have thought about holding off on the HPOP for now and focusing on finding some new injectors.

Also have thought about keeping the Infinity for monitoring and running a Hydra for tuning.

Thanks for all the help.
I have a T500. I had similar numbers to you prior to the T500. I then had almost identical numbers to Rich with his T500 once I installed mine. ICP lows were not as low but the spikes were much higher, as in over 4200 PSI ICP. What changed. Nothing but the HPOP. Same tunes, same injectors, same tuner, same everything.

Then I changed tuners and to Hydra. No more spikes or low ICP. HPOP would maintain 3000 ICP for miles while climbing. Great HPOP!

Move forward a little while. I did not use my truck for nearly a year due to illness. Had a friend that needed a high performance HPOP while his was rebuilt. So, I pulled my T500 and loaned it to him. RE-installed my e99 15*, supposedly inferior, dying a slow death. or death warmed over HPOP just so I could drive the truck if I needed it for those two weeks. Guess what, that old HPOP was just fine and held 2700-2800 PSI ICP for up to three minutes on Gearhead tunes which is good ICP by the way. Why, for one thing, the FIPW never went above 2.8 ms. Black smoke, high EGT's, loud injectors, harsh transmission shifts, herky jerky throttle all went away too.

Take away, diagnosis of a weak HPOP was flat wrong. It was FIPW all day long, everyday.

What is your FIPW prior to the spike?
 
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  #12  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:45 PM
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I didn't get to drive it today. I am still flushing the cooling system due to bad injector cups so the cooling system is currently drained. I will try and throw some water and more soap in it tommorow and take it for a spin and monitor FIPW. I'm sure it will be super high as it is the same tuner that both you and Rich experienced issues with.

My main concern is the Injectors as they are a big purchase and want to get the correct ones for my application. I am currently looking at the PHP Hydra just trying to decide on what injectors I am going to get so I can get the right tunes as well.
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:58 PM
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I know you had the air issue but 145k on stock split shot injectors is not a lot of miles. Question anyone that says otherwise. There are guys on here that have over twice as many miles and they are still running fine.

If it were my money, I would try different tunes first before I even thought about injectors. Gearhead offers free upgrades to tunes as you upgrade your truck regardless of where you purchase the upgrades.

Either 160cc or 175cc injectors with 80% nozzles are a super upgrade regardless of whether you drive around town, on the interstate, or tow 16k lbs up a mountain. They are also easy to tune. If a tune writer says they aren't and tries to talk you out of them for 30% or 0% nozzles then consider that to be a red flag and run.

Next, you need to decide if NEW or used injectors are in your budget. If you want reliability, NEW wins hands down.
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:07 PM
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Injectors would be new, no question. I don't know if I feel comfortable just saying the injectors are fine with having a no start from them. That makes me nervous and not trust the vehicle, maybe it was a fluke as I haven't found anyone else with this same issue. I know my boost is a little low but even before the tuner it had a fair bit of cold start smoke and low MPG's.
 
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:09 PM
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Who sells new injectors with 160/80 or 175/80? I have found lots of remans but no one with that combo new.
Found that PIS sells the 175/80 new but couldn't find the 160/80.
 
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