Notices

Vehicle weight ratings, CDL, combination registration confusion

 
  #1  
Old 10-19-2016, 06:50 PM
dlauffenburger
dlauffenburger is offline
Senior User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 207
dlauffenburger is starting off with a positive reputation.
Vehicle weight ratings, CDL, combination registration confusion

I have been looking at replacing my F150 with a F250 for acouple of months now, while my F150 is a fantastic truck I started raisingDraft Horses and our current horse trailer is too short in height (the horsesneed to duck their heads while inside).
Last week Icontacted the local notary (in PA notaries perform all the licensing andregistration) and asked about registering and licensing requirements for a NON-Commercial F250and a Gooseneck horse trailer. She hesitated and then started asking me details about thevehicles. I told her the F250 would havea GVWR of 10,000 lbs and that the Gooseneck would have a 14,000 GVWR, she proceededto tell me that the laws had changed a couple of years ago and now they areenforcing the rules, so I would have to register the truck as a CombinationVehicle Weight Class 8 ($505) vice Weight Class 4A for a truck with GVWR of10,000 ($212) (the F150 is Class 2 ($86). I explained to her that I am Not a Commercial driver and myunderstanding was the as long as I did not exceed 26,000 lbs GCVWR I did notneed a combination registration and she said the new guidance they received wasthat if the truck and trailers total combined GVWR exceeded 17,500 lbs it isconsidered a combination vehicle and had to be licensed that way. I asked herwhat law they were using and she said she did not know and that is just what they weretold how to register vehicles from now on, she told me she would ask her boss andget back to me. Later that afternoon shecalled me back and said that her boss (the licensed notary) said she wasn’t sure of the actual law butthey thought it was in either the PA Vehicle Law Code 43 or the Federal MotorCarriers (FMC) law section 309.
I spent a week looking through both referencesand have not been able to find anything that states any of the specifics theyreference.
The FMC 309 Applicability Statementsays that it only applies to Commercial vehicles. I am not commercial.
The PA law talks about CDL forvehicles-trailers with a combined weight over 26,000 lbs if towing a trailer grater than 10,001 lbs. I couldn’t find anythingstating 17,500 Lbs or the requirement for a combination license for non-commercial.
I contacted theregional Federal DOT Weights and Measures contact and explained my dilemma and asked what I needed to register the vehicles for, and he started to tell methat I would be over 17,500 lbs and I would need to get a CDL and a combinationvehicle registration and license. Again I explained my confusion and asked him what laws he was using so I could lookthem up and read them to clarify in my own mind. He stated FMC and CFR 49. Well after researching FMC is CFR 49 so I amno closer to an answer.

Can anyone please give me some insight and guidance on whatthe laws are and where I can find the information in writing?
What determines a combination vehicle? Some sections in the above laws specify Truck-trailer,Truck-tractor, Semi-trucks, and combination vehicles but I can’t seem to findanything that clearly differentiates what they are.

I am sorry for the long post, but I have been researchingfor a week and am more confused now than I was before.



Thank you for any assistance,
David
 
  #2  
Old 10-20-2016, 06:59 PM
senix's Avatar
senix
senix is online now
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 29,830
senix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputation
No CDL for private use as long as you are not selling.


I suggest you speak with the dept of motor vehicles and not a 3rd party.

In Maryland, where I am, the truck has its registration and the trailer does too.


RV is exempt for the 26K. So you are not a camper but still under 26K and not for hire so no combo requirement for MD.


You need to seek the dept of motor vehicles for pa. I don't think the combo applies and certainly not a CDL
 
  #3  
Old 10-21-2016, 04:20 AM
Chuck's First Ford
Chuck's First Ford is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: very South Texas
Posts: 4,372
Chuck's First Ford has a great reputation on FTE.Chuck's First Ford has a great reputation on FTE.Chuck's First Ford has a great reputation on FTE.Chuck's First Ford has a great reputation on FTE.
a CDL is used for a truck driver of a Company business.. 1 or 5000 employee's.

You are not a company correct?


contact your State Highway Patrol... for better information.. they write the tickets..
 
  #4  
Old 10-21-2016, 08:31 AM
1979 Ford's Avatar
1979 Ford
1979 Ford is offline
FTE Chapter Leader
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Not as far west as I want
Posts: 3,460
1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold
The CDL requirements are greater than 26,000 pounds. So, 26,001. That is based on gross vehicle weight ratings. I use the example of my pickup and a gooseneck. 10,000 pounds GVWR on my trailer and 14,000 pounds GVWR. That equals 24,000 pounds no CDL required.

So, the acid test question is "are you being paid?" You deliver the horses and collect money. As far licensing goes, not sure what flies in PA.

Not sure what the FMCSA person was talking about. Part 383 talks at length about CDL requirements. You do not need a CDL with this setup.
 
  #5  
Old 10-21-2016, 12:04 PM
dlauffenburger
dlauffenburger is offline
Senior User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 207
dlauffenburger is starting off with a positive reputation.
Gentlemen,


Thank You for the replies. I will continue researching, but everything I have found mirrors your replies.


I will contact the PA DOT office and see if I can get any clarification. It amazes me that they make the requirements so hard to find/understand, it is no wonder so many people are getting tickets for not following the rules.


Thanks,
 
  #6  
Old 10-21-2016, 02:44 PM
1979 Ford's Avatar
1979 Ford
1979 Ford is offline
FTE Chapter Leader
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Not as far west as I want
Posts: 3,460
1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold1979 Ford is a splendid one to behold
South Dakota and interstate stuff I can give you all sorts of advise. It sounds more like a registration issue.
 
  #7  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:53 AM
Freightrain's Avatar
Freightrain
Freightrain is offline
Shiftoholic
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 9,623
Freightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud of
That's the problem, every state has different ways to license a vehicle. I thought PA had to have a "truck" plate on all pickups. Where in Ohio you can put a "non comm" plate and get away cheaper. That is as long as you don't get caught with a big trailer behind it. Thus PA makes you plate the truck for the heaviest thing you "might" put behind it. A friend from Ohio get busted in PA for having "non comm" plates pulling a car trailer in PA.

That is where I think you are at. The weight is heavy, thus you get stuck in the "commercial" side of things. No matter if you aren't, you are heavy enough. I'm guessing it won't have "sleeping quarters" were you could register it as a camper(they don't need to know it hauls horses). Like a "toy hauler" which hauls vehicles but is a camper.
 
  #8  
Old 10-31-2016, 01:21 PM
senix's Avatar
senix
senix is online now
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 29,830
senix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputationsenix has a superb reputation
[QUOTE=Freightrain;16686150]That's the problem, every state has different ways to license a vehicle. I thought PA had to have a "truck" plate on all pickups. Where in Ohio you can put a "non comm" plate and get away cheaper. That is as long as you don't get caught with a big trailer behind it. Thus PA makes you plate the truck for the heaviest thing you "might" put behind it. A friend from Ohio get busted in PA for having "non comm" plates pulling a car trailer in PA.



There is more to this story then being reported here. Each state has an agreement to honor the other states. If this was a private person hauling a car on a trailer they would not pull him over for being improperly registered. If he was private he was proper.


Speed limits, roads he can drive on, those sorts of things apply.
 
  #9  
Old 11-02-2016, 08:29 PM
bigredtruckmi's Avatar
bigredtruckmi
bigredtruckmi is online now
Post Fiend
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Huntington Indiana
Posts: 7,918
bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.
One of the primary questions that could be asked. Do you get paid for the draft horses? If you do then they might consider you a business. Here in Michigan you would have to have a CDL F (farm) license.
 
  #10  
Old 11-03-2016, 09:31 AM
dlauffenburger
dlauffenburger is offline
Senior User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 207
dlauffenburger is starting off with a positive reputation.
Originally Posted by bigredtruckmi View Post
One of the primary questions that could be asked. Do you get paid for the draft horses? If you do then they might consider you a business. Here in Michigan you would have to have a CDL F (farm) license.
No, I don't get paid for the horses? I am not commercial.
 
  #11  
Old 11-03-2016, 10:08 AM
dlauffenburger
dlauffenburger is offline
Senior User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 207
dlauffenburger is starting off with a positive reputation.
I was finally able to get a hold of someone at the PA DOT and asked her for clarification. Unfortunately, I ended up more confused and frustrated afterwards than I was previously. Her first answer was that I couldn't tow a 14,000 GWR trailer because my truck was only a 10,000 GVWR. I explained that the total trailer weight doesn't rest on the truck. She then put me on hold, after returning she stated that I would have to register my truck as a combination vehicle and as a Weight Class 8. When I asked why a combination she stated that registering is as a combination allows me bypasses the GVWR of the truck so I could tow the 14,000 lbs trailer. After a short back and forth I determined that we were talking apples and oranges and asked her what law she was referencing, she stated Pa Title 75 Chapter 49, section 4942.

Below are the vehicle Definitions copied from PA Title 75, Section 102.

"Combination." Two or more vehicles physically interconnected in tandem.

"Truck." A motor vehicle designed primarily for the transportation of property. The term includes motor vehicles designed with seats that may be readily removed and reinstalled if those vehicles are primarily used for the transportation of property.

"Truck tractor." A motor vehicle designed and used primarily for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry a load other than a part of the weight of the vehicle and load so drawn.

"Vehicle." Every device in, upon or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices used exclusively upon rails or tracks. The term does not include a self-propelled wheelchair or an electrical mobility device operated by and designed for the exclusive use of a person with a mobility-related disability.

Excerpt from Title 75, Chapter 49 section 4942. Registered gross weight.

(a) Single vehicle limits.--No vehicle registered as a truck, a combination or a trailer shall be operated with a gross weight in excess of its registered gross weight.

(b) Truck towing trailer.--No vehicle registered as a truck shall be operated with a gross weight, exclusive of any trailer being towed, in excess of its registered gross weight as a truck.

(c) Combination.--No combination containing a trailer having a gross weight or registered gross weight in excess of 10,000 pounds shall be operated with a gross weight in excess of the registered gross weight of the truck or truck tractor for a combination.
(Dec. 21, 1998, P.L.1126, No.151, eff. 60 days)
--------------------------------

CFR 49 Definition
383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups.

The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:

(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

(3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in 383.5.
---------------------------

After reading the PA definitions I was still a little confused on what was considered a Combination because is seems to be used interchangeable throughout the law so I looked at the CFR 49 (FMCSA) definitions.

Let me state up front that I am not a lawyer so I may be missing something, but from what I can gleam from the above data the PA laws left out the baseline requirement to exceed 26,000 Lbs GVWR to determine if you meet the combination requirement. Additionally, they seem to be ignoring para b of section 4942.

Any insight and guidance from the group experts would be greatly appreciated before I contact the local DOT req again.

Thanks,
David
 
  #12  
Old 11-03-2016, 10:12 AM
dlauffenburger
dlauffenburger is offline
Senior User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 207
dlauffenburger is starting off with a positive reputation.
Originally Posted by bigredtruckmi View Post
One of the primary questions that could be asked. Do you get paid for the draft horses? If you do then they might consider you a business. Here in Michigan you would have to have a CDL F (farm) license.
Dave (OS1),

thanks for your service.

I am a retired (28 yrs) Navy Mineman/Surface Warfare Officer. As you can tell from this post, I sure miss the straightforward wording of Military instructions compared to the civilian laws.

Dave
 
  #13  
Old 11-03-2016, 12:08 PM
Freightrain's Avatar
Freightrain
Freightrain is offline
Shiftoholic
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 9,623
Freightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud ofFreightrain has much to be proud of
Originally Posted by senix View Post
There is more to this story then being reported here. Each state has an agreement to honor the other states. If this was a private person hauling a car on a trailer they would not pull him over for being improperly registered. If he was private he was proper.


Speed limits, roads he can drive on, those sorts of things apply.
Exactly, he was pulling a 28ft enclosed trailer behind a "non comm" plated pickup. Busted. It was clearly seen he was pulling a trailer behind a truck with improper plates. He was using a vehicle that was not registered/plated for the intended use. Flying under the radar, like I used to back in those days. I pulled my 40ft trailer behind my F350 with non comm Ohio plates. I went all over the East coast and I'll just say I was lucky and never got "caught". He wasn't so lucky.


As for the posters question and trying to get a real answer. Good luck. This has been a growing issue, especially with CDL's and the national antique truck club that I am involved with. Historically plated big trucks and getting to shows, pulling trailers, etc. No one really wants to define the letter of the law. They just resort back to "you must be commercial and need to follow all these rules". It is a growing trend.

Go onto any racing website and read how these guys with "large" rigs are getting stopped and hassled about being "commercial", even if they aren't. Believe me, it is an issue and I doubt any laws will be changed. It's all about the MONEY and they aren't going to let you get away with cheaper registration.
 
  #14  
Old 11-03-2016, 01:28 PM
bigredtruckmi's Avatar
bigredtruckmi
bigredtruckmi is online now
Post Fiend
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Huntington Indiana
Posts: 7,918
bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.bigredtruckmi has a spectacular reputation.
Originally Posted by dlauffenburger View Post
Dave (OS1),

thanks for your service.

I am a retired (28 yrs) Navy Mineman/Surface Warfare Officer. As you can tell from this post, I sure miss the straightforward wording of Military instructions compared to the civilian laws.

Dave
Thank you!
Some folks should have mil training before making laws that don't make sense
 
  #15  
Old 11-03-2016, 03:49 PM
thomabb's Avatar
thomabb
thomabb is offline
Posting Guru
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,391
thomabb is a splendid one to beholdthomabb is a splendid one to beholdthomabb is a splendid one to beholdthomabb is a splendid one to beholdthomabb is a splendid one to beholdthomabb is a splendid one to behold
In PA, if you are towing a trailer registered over 10k lbs, the tow vehicle has to be rated for the weight of the combination. It isn't a CDL issue. You don't need a CDL unless you are making money with your rig. You can derate the registered weight on your trailer in PA. That's what I did with my 5th wheel. It was registered for 13k lbs when I bought it but I checked it on the scale coming home from our first trip and it only weighed 9k, so I lowered the registration weight. Now my truck is registered as a class 2.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Vehicle weight ratings, CDL, combination registration confusion


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.