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6.9 IDI Cooking Oil Conversion

 
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Old 09-20-2016, 12:22 PM
dodonne2
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6.9 IDI Cooking Oil Conversion

I am looking at a 1986 6.9L IDI F-250 that isnt currently running due to "fuel supply issues". The price is right, so long as this guy didnt screw anything up by running pure vegetable oil from a local restuarant in the truck. My question is, how will running cooking oil grease from a restuarant effect the engine in this truck in the long run without any type of conversion kits used. I know these engines are build to burn oil based fuel, what type of damage could this cause to an engine that doesnt hav any type of veggie buring conversions done to it. It hasn't been running for over a year. Low mileage on the truck, 100k, second owner, maybe 10,000 miles ran on cooking grease oil. What can I expect to need to replace on this truck if it is even worth it to buy after this "fuel" was used. I am brand new to this, so anything helps.

OD
 
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Old 09-20-2016, 12:58 PM
gittinwidit
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One thing to check would be build-up in the fuel lines. To correctly run veggie you need heated fuel lines. Of course first thing I do to ANY diesel I buy that's been sitting a long time is clean the fuel lines.
 
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Old 09-20-2016, 02:23 PM
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He recently installed new lines and caps. Would the next probable issue be the lift pump? I have read about electric fuel pumps for these trucks that arent as expensive as the mechanical ones. I understand mechanic is advantageous (less electronics), but will an electric fuel pump work with a biofuel fuel system?
 
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Old 09-21-2016, 12:41 AM
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Engines that do not have the proper set up to run vegetable oil run the risk of major issues over time. How long before issues? Hard to say. Several months to a year or two, maybe? Far too many factors to be able to predict, but one thing is for sure. Once it goes down, you can count on it being done.

This is because not having a proper system allows vegetable oil to cool down, over and over again, in your injectors, fuel lines, fuel pump, piston rings, and cylinders. Over time, the vegetable oil will polymerize and build up in these areas. It is virtually impossible to remove polymerized vegetable oil in these areas without disassembly, and manually removing it. No known solvent or chemical will simply dissolve it.

The repeated heating and cooling cycles of the vegetable oil in the piston ring landings will eventually render the piston rings useless by locking them up with build up. You'll lose oil control and compression.

The bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to remove once it has built up and coated everything it comes into contact with.

The truck you're looking at is not running because it wasn't set up right. I'd be willing to bet that the problems go beyond the simply stated 'fuel supply issues'. Even if you were to get it for free, you would be inheriting a whole multitude of problems.
 
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by binuya View Post
Engines that do not have the proper set up to run vegetable oil run the risk of major issues over time. How long before issues? Hard to say. Several months to a year or two, maybe? Far too many factors to be able to predict, but one thing is for sure. Once it goes down, you can count on it being done.

This is because not having a proper system allows vegetable oil to cool down, over and over again, in your injectors, fuel lines, fuel pump, piston rings, and cylinders. Over time, the vegetable oil will polymerize and build up in these areas. It is virtually impossible to remove polymerized vegetable oil in these areas without disassembly, and manually removing it. No known solvent or chemical will simply dissolve it.

The repeated heating and cooling cycles of the vegetable oil in the piston ring landings will eventually render the piston rings useless by locking them up with build up. You'll lose oil control and compression.

The bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to remove once it has built up and coated everything it comes into contact with.

The truck you're looking at is not running because it wasn't set up right. I'd be willing to bet that the problems go beyond the simply stated 'fuel supply issues'. Even if you were to get it for free, you would be inheriting a whole multitude of problems.
While I don't disagree with this, all hope is not lost.

The problems could be simple or could require replacing the fuel tanks, fuel pump, injectors and IP. A very common problem is the 6-way switching valve for the fuel tanks malfunctions. It can get gummed up with WVO or get stuck 1/2 way between tanks, etc. I would start diagnosis here. Perhaps bypass the switching valve and stock tanks all together and see if the stock pump will pull fuel out of a can up to the engine.

New tanks for that truck are not expensive, but the pick-up/sending unit modules are...

As far as pumps go, one friend used to say 'those ford mechanical pumps will pump gravel' - they are durable and powerful.

After you get the truck to run on diesel again, I'll be happy to help you design a 'proper' WVO conversion. I've been doing conversions for over 10yrs and have dozens of trouble-free veggie systems running all over the country and even Canada. There are no 'kits' or conversion companies I would recommend for your truck - they all SUCK. You are much better off with a good DIY system.

A properly designed WVO conversion will include the following:

- separate tank for WVO (ideally aluminum, but a factory poly/plastic tank is fine)

- separate filters for WVO and diesel

- the ability to switch fuels without contaminating the diesel with WVO

- the ability to 'purge' all WVO from the injectors, IP, etc at shut down

- enough heat in the WVO system to get the oil to the same viscosity as diesel (typically we want to see at least 160* WVO at the IP/injectors)

- IMHO a fuel pressure gauge is required so that you know what is going on


Good luck and keep us posted.

I designed a 40 gal alum tank that replaces your factory rear tank and spare tire. It does require some fabrication, cutting and welding to install though... Contact Dave at Wvo and svo diesel to vegetable oil conversion kit | Veggie Garage for info.

The forum at WVO Diesel Conversion | SVO Grease Conversion | Ford Vegistroke Powerstroke | Biodiesel Conversion is probably the best place for good info about WVO and I post there regularly. Infopoop, GC and the other forums are so full of bad info and morons - I can't even read them.

Search my screen name and with a little digging you can read what I've advised others with trucks similar to yours. I also used 'airfooter' once upon a time on another PSD forum. I've learned a little since I started, so check with me to make sure I don't have a better idea than something I posted years ago!!
 
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:32 AM
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UPDATE

After changing:

lift pump
injectors
injector lines
glow plugs (not pop tested by me, remanufactured)

....the truck is running..
However, there is a tremendous amount of white smoke billowing out and it has a very rough idle and will not accelerate above 2200 rmp without cutting out and popping.

From what I have read this is caused by unburnt fuel which can either be a loose/bad injector or worse the rings are shot and the engine might as well be scrapped. I want to start a new thread for this discussion so any moderators please forward me in the correct direction if one already exists. If not any comments on this are greatly appreciated here.

Did the worst case scenario really just happen and the rings are corroded and bad due to the poor WVO/petrodiesel mixing over the past 5,000 miles? Keep in mind the truck only has 102,000 miles on it and has been sitting, gunked up for 2 years, after the previous owner tried to mix his own WVO/petro blend.

I didn't have the new remanufactured injectors pop tested before putting them on the truck? Is this completely necessary? I'm assuming this will be my next move is to have the injectors tested.

Any suggestions, especially from people versed in WVO, are greatly appreciated here. Can 5,000 miles of WVO mixed with petrodiesel 50/50 corrode rings that quickly??
 

Last edited by dodonne2; 10-28-2016 at 10:33 AM. Reason: UPDATE
  #7  
Old 11-01-2016, 10:31 AM
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I doubt it's the rings, sounds to me like the IP is on it's way out.
Which should come to no real surprise given the circumstances.

Oh I'd also try and add some Diesel-Kleen to the tank, can't hurt at this point.
 
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Old 11-01-2016, 10:44 AM
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IP

I bought the IP on Ebay from Pensacola Diesel in Florida and a local pump rebuilder seems to think it is probable that the rebuild was done incorrectly. I just had the injectors tested and they are fine, now working on finding a a compression tester. As long as compression is good, I think the most likely cause of the white smoke and rough idle is a poorly build IP pump. I paid $400 on ebay for it. We'll see if the compression looks good today and I will update
 
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Old 11-01-2016, 10:47 AM
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Yea Pensacola / Diesel care both do "amish rebuilds" not actual rebuilds from what I understand. They just take bad IPs do the least amount possible slap them back together and call it good. I could be wrong but that's what others have said.
 
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Old 11-01-2016, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dodonne2 View Post
Can 5,000 miles of WVO mixed with petrodiesel 50/50 corrode rings that quickly??
It doesn't corrode rings. What it can do, is polymerize in the landings rendering the rings unable to expand and contract freely, therefore causing loss of compression. Have you checked blowby while it's running? It should puff a bit, but definitely not chug huge amounts of smoke and air.
 
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Old 11-04-2016, 12:12 PM
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Pensacola diesel sucks.

'Blending' D2 and WVO will eventually cause coking in the combustion chamber and in ringland which can increase cylinder wear and cause low compression. I HIGHLY doubt you did any significant damage in 5k miles. However, the IP is more sensitive. It does not like to have VO left in it. The VO tends to polymerize and block passages/increase wear in the pump. Also, if you are not adequately dewatering your WVO the water will destroy an IP and injectors pretty quickly.

You can check blow-by (ring seal) by removing the oil filler cap with engine running. If there is pressure coming out of the VC's and specifically it goes 'puff puff puff' - then you've likely got a compression problem.

Another consideration is fuel supply to the the IP. The poly'd up VO wreaks havoc on the tank switching valve and can even plug the pick-ups in the tanks. I've replaced a few FREAK NASTY stock tanks on trucks like yours where people were putting WVO in them.

Good luck and keep us posted!
 
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Old 11-13-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
You can check blow-by (ring seal) by removing the oil filler cap with engine running. If there is pressure coming out of the VC's and specifically it goes 'puff puff puff' - then you've likely got a compression problem.
Just be aware that IDIs -- right from the factory even -- produce a massive amount of blow by just because. They were designed to do so to add extra longevity to the rings, I think - the ring gaps are huge.

Either way, if you block off the CDR port, you will see a constant stream of blow by "smoke" coming out of whatever port it can get out of(the oil cap if you have it off). If you don't block off the CDR, you shouldn't see any blowby, because it's all being sucked into the intake and burned.

You can easily see this on *any* IDI by removing the air filter and starting the engine. You will see a constant stream of smoke coming from the CDR at the back of the intake manifold and forward into the various intake ports(most going into #7 and #8 at the back).

Other engines aren't this way, so looking for blow by will actually indicate a problem.
 
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Macrobb View Post

You can easily see this on *any* IDI by removing the air filter and starting the engine. You will see a constant stream of smoke coming from the CDR at the back of the intake manifold and forward into the various intake ports(most going into #7 and #8 at the back).

Other engines aren't this way, so looking for blow by will actually indicate a problem.
All high compression engines (specifically NA IDI's) will have some blow-by. The 'test' I suggested above is valid. Normal blow-by is just a steady stream like you indicated. If that stream develops PRESSURE, then you have a problem - especially given the crankcase vent has a slight vacuum in the OE configuration.

It is highly unlikely the OP has a compression issue. A dead cylinder will show a constant miss at idle and will 'puff, puff' at the oil filler cap (not steady stream of oil mist/smoke).
 
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
All high compression engines (specifically NA IDI's) will have some blow-by.
In theory this is true, but a friend of mine has a 99 Ram with 24V cummins; it has a RDT from the factory. I see just about nothing coming out of it.

An IDI with a RDT? Anyone around you will be thinking your truck is on fire.

Sure, all engines may have 'some' blow by, but there is an order of magnitude difference going on here.

Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
The 'test' I suggested above is valid. Normal blow-by is just a steady stream like you indicated. If that stream develops PRESSURE, then you have a problem - especially given the crankcase vent has a slight vacuum in the OE configuration.
If it develops pressure, I'd be thinking the CDR was blocked before thinking it was rings.

Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
It is highly unlikely the OP has a compression issue. A dead cylinder will show a constant miss at idle and will 'puff, puff' at the oil filler cap (not steady stream of oil mist/smoke).
I agree with this.

Just remember: IDIs are /tough/. They don't give up just because of a cracked ring, scored piston walls or cracked heads. Burning oil for a while might screw up the fuel system, but the motor's a lot tougher than you might expect.
 
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Old 11-22-2016, 09:14 AM
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I have no idea what RDT or CDR are. I want to ASSume that is some sort of crankcase ventilation based on the context of the conversation...

The OP describes billowing white smoke - from the tailpipe (more ASSumptions on my part).

I mostly work on 7.3 PSD's, but do have a couple IDI customers. One IDI here now had a TERRIBLE 'veggie conversion' for YEARS. It currently needs new injector o-rings as a minimum, but we'll probably replace IP and injectors just because I know what abuse they've taken.

This 7.3 PSD had this level of 'blow-by' for well over 100k miles after rebuild. It made almost 400HP the whole time and towed my 12.5k lb campers all over the country for 50% of the miles. No pressure, just a steady stream of oil vapor (shown from the 'draft tube' aka CCV to atmosphere in this pic). The only point is some engines 'smoke' more from crankcase vent/oil filler cap than others - but 'puffing' or pressure building in the crankcase is always a bad thing. I have a few PSD's here now that range from almost no smoke/oil vapor to almost as bad as this pic. There is nothing wrong with any of them.

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What happened to the OP????
 

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