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long cold crank no start hot

 
  #1  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:09 PM
sandflea1
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long cold crank no start hot

i'm in need of a little help. I have a early 99 f250 super duty 7.3l and it's giving me fits. about a month ago the truck started to do a hot no start. drove truck for about a hour. shut it off and half hour later no start. let it sit over night and would start with long crank. changed CPS no change. Pulled tuner and set back to stock. No change. changed fuel filter, no change. after reading forums changed IPR and truck started and ran great. about a week ago back to the same problem. battery's are about 2 months old. oil change and oil filter a month ago. checked the hpop reservoir and its 1/2 from the top. checked fuel bowl and it has fuel. no sign of oil in it. drained bowl and watch bowl fill back up. seems to fill quickly. pulled passside valve cover to check for bad orings while cranking. every thing seems fine. have not done driver side yet. used FORSCAN and ran buzzed test on injectors and they all buzzed what seems to be about the same. ran test couple of times to make sure. this morning I ran a live scan while cranking and this is what I got right before it started. ICP 660.6psi, IPR 64.84% and RPMs 227. took 8.86 seconds to start. after work scaned again for hot no start and this what I got. ICP 292.9psi, IPR 55.86%. and RPMS 203. unplug ICP and no change. still will not start. one thing I did notice when plugging ICP back in I looked down in side at the pins and can see what seems to be bubbling around one of the pins. the pig tail has just the slights sign of oil.


any help would be great. thanks
 
  #2  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:14 PM
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Any signs of oil in the ICP plug, indicates a new ICP in the shopping cart. Also, check the tin nut on the ipr. Took a gander at mine today and noticed it was loose. Of engine sounds faster than 200+ rpms while cranking, maybe the cps is bad/failing
 
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:27 PM
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There is a slight trace of oil on the ICP pig tail. I did check the tin nut on the IPR and it's tight.
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:24 AM
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The PCM will not fire the injectors until the ICP sensor says the ICP is 500 PSI minimum. No 500 PSI, no start - straight up. It's unusual for the ICP sensor to read low when it fails, but it is your prime suspect right now - because of the oil in the pins. Other suspects are the IPR (shoot an inverted can of air on it to cool it), and any O-ring in contact with the High Pressure Oil - including the injector O-rings. Once the ICP sensor is proven good, a Cody test may be in order.
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:42 AM
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Given the fact it wouldn't start with the ICP sensor disconnected, the sensor is not the cause of the no start. If there was actually sufficient ICP while cranking, the engine would have started. What does the ICP voltage read at KOEO? It should be in the neighborhood of 0.2 volts. What is ICP voltage and IPR duty cycle at cold idle and hot idle?
 
  #6  
Old 07-19-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sandflea1 View Post
ICP 660.6psi, IPR 64.84% and RPMs 227.

It started here because the ICP was greater than 500 psig




Originally Posted by sandflea1 View Post
ICP 292.9psi, IPR 55.86%. and RPMS 203.

Here your loosing pressure. Why?


Weak HPOP
Defective ICP / IPR
Injector O-Ring Failed


Its time to look at voltage rather than pressure in your diagnostics:


ICP: 5 Volt Reference Circuit, 1.0 vdc @ 580 psig, and 3.22volts @ 2520 psig.


ICP Vdc
0 0.2 (KOEO)
200 0.4 (KOE Cranking)
400 0.73
600 0.96
800 1.2
1000 1.4 (KOER)
1200 1.6
1400 1.9
1600 2.1
1800 2.3
2000 2.6
2200 2.8
2400 3.0
2600 3.3
2800 3.5


The IPR is fully open at 65%. But, just because its registering doesn't necessarily mean its working correctly. Disconnect the pig tail and apply 12 vdc with the IDM Relay or Fuse removed.


You should see either 65% or 100% depending on what Scantool you are using. Remove 12vdc when done cranking.


This shouldn't be longer than say 30 - 60 seconds.


The O-Ring can be tested by introducing shop air into the ICP Tap on either head. Air escaping from the oil fill / under D/S Valve Cover indicates an O-Ring.


You can also move the ICP to the other head and monitor the other oil rail. Or, add an old ICP to the other head and tap the EBP Sensor and monitor both heads at the same time.


You can also use the IPR Tap (Hole) and check both at the same time.


After all this explaining, I found a file attached explaining the process better than I. See attached.
 
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HPO Sys Air Testing the.txt (2.3 KB, 62 views)
  #7  
Old 07-19-2016, 09:34 AM
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How many miles are on the engine?

Does the motor have the original injectors and o-rings in it.

Also, 203 RPM's while cranking sounds kinda low to me on a hot motor.

You may have a combination of things working against you on this.
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:50 AM
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Something isn't right about the documents linked to above. It says to thread an M12x1.5 adapter into the IPR port. The threads on an IPR valve are much larger than that. The picture in the .pdf shows a commercially available test adapter. Here's an IPR next to an M12x1.5 adapter (with a quick connect screwed into it).

http://i.imgur.com/gvdCEa4.jpg
 
  #9  
Old 07-19-2016, 09:56 AM
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240k on the motor. did the injectors and o-rings 2 years ago. had an oil leak at the HPOP that I fixed about a week ago. it was the fitting at the pump that goes to the oil line going to the passside head. I will run the volt test after work tonight and also depending on time I will do the air test. one thing I noticed driving it home after a 15-20 second crank cold to get it started is my battery light started flashing.
 
  #10  
Old 07-19-2016, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pikachu View Post
Something isn't right about the documents linked to above. It says to thread an M12x1.5 adapter into the IPR port. The threads on an IPR valve are much larger than that. The picture in the .pdf shows a commercially available test adapter. Here's an IPR next to an M12x1.5 adapter (with a quick connect screwed into it).

http://i.imgur.com/gvdCEa4.jpg

Good catch! That should probably read ICP Port. Or have the correct thread for the IPR listed.
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pirschwagon View Post
Good catch! That should probably read ICP Port. Or have the correct thread for the IPR listed.

I just looked at it and it's correct.


The IPR Test "Harness" is an electrical connector for 12 vdc which open the valve all the way while performing the test. It has two battery clips and a IPR Electrical Connector on the other end.


The commercial tester screws into the HPOP.


I took a photo (if you can call it that.... hey I'm OLD). It shows the IPR Harness and the ICP Harness. You can also use the IPR Harness on the EBPV to see if it moves easily.


 
  #12  
Old 07-19-2016, 01:49 PM
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I just looked at it again and it says ICP valve, which of course doesn't exist. I have a feeling it was written for a 6 liter. It says the M12x1.5 adapter is the same size as the fuel pressure test port. On a 6.0, that's true, but not on a 7.3. The 7.3 fuel pressure test ports are -4 ORB on the filter housing and 1/8" NPTF on the heads. M12x1.5 isn't right for the ICP sensor port on a 7.3 either. That would be -5 ORB. It may be -4 ORB, but I'm fairly certain I remember it being -5. In any case, it isn't metric, and an ICP sensor from a 6 liter won't fit the port on a 7.3 liter.
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pikachu View Post
I just looked at it again and it says ICP valve, which of course doesn't exist. I have a feeling it was written for a 6 liter. It says the M12x1.5 adapter is the same size as the fuel pressure test port. On a 6.0, that's true, but not on a 7.3. The 7.3 fuel pressure test ports are -4 ORB on the filter housing and 1/8" NPTF on the heads. M12x1.5 isn't right for the ICP sensor port on a 7.3 either. That would be -5 ORB. It may be -4 ORB, but I'm fairly certain I remember it being -5. In any case, it isn't metric, and an ICP sensor from a 6 liter won't fit the port on a 7.3 liter.

You are correct. #5 ORB, with a 1/2-20UNF is the listed adaptor for the 7.3 ICP Test Gauge Port.


Straight 1/8 FNPT For the Bowl
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 03:54 PM
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where do you get these adapters from? or could I make my own?
 
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sandflea1 View Post
where do you get these adapters from? or could I make my own?

Just about any local Hydraulic Shop would have them. I get them from the Truck but I'm sure they get them from supply houses.


The Fuel Port Adaptor is available: 1/8" NPT straight pressure port adapter.


perhaps some of our sponsors has them.
 

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