The truck is about 200 miles shy of 150k miles.

I'm pretty sure that all that's technically wrong is that the right side tensioner is blown out, and one of the rockers and adjusters is roached as well as a marred cam lobe as a result. Technically speaking, just replacing the follower, adjuster and cam tensioner would be enough to eliminate the clattering for 20-40k or so, but I never want to be inside the motor again. The chains were pretty sloppy, and the low oil history on the right bank kind of leads me to believe that there would be future failures of rockers or adjusters at some point soon, even if oil pressure were restored.

It feels pretty wasteful, even for me to just replace everything, but so much rides on me having a good running vehicle and winters are pretty miserable for working on cars where I live, so this buys me peace of mind I guess.

I'm 99 percent sure this will eliminate the clattering for good, but only about 40 percent sure that the power issue will be resolved by this. That being said, the cats have my 60 percent, so I am pretty confident I'll be back on the road soon, since if it is the cats, some pipe and anti-foulers solve that issue.

Its gonna be about 1,300 for parts and tools, and I really hate spending that much, but once its done it should hopefully be good for another 140k.

Thanks again for your input.

 

Getting ready to put my truck in the shop for the phaser replacement. I had a couple estimates from small shops and one from one of the local Ford dealers. Surprisingly the Ford dealer made me feel the best about the job. They have done this job more than the others, they all had costs in the same neighborhood. One guy wanted to pour lead into the phasers to lock them up. Not sure if that's how the lock out kit works but I like the idea that the phasers allow the truck to swing back and forth from economy to HP and Torque. Thoughts??

 

My suggestion is to have the phasers replaced if that is the cause and after that, only use 5w 30. That is what I intend to do. Running a little heavier oil on the top end keeps the oil just a little thicker when hot, and should help cusion the phasers better. This by reccomendation of FordTech MacuLoco who definately knows his stuff.

Locking the phasers requires a reprogram and you lose about 15 percent of your power and I've heard and some economy. Some can live with that, but I couldn't. I'd shy away from pouring lead in, that just sounds pretty crazy when ebay has the lockouts for pretty cheap. I suppose that could work, but it just seems a little crackpot to me.

If the dealer sounds competent and the price is close, I'd just use them. Like you said, they probably have more experience with this issue. Before any of that though, provided the ticking goes away after 1000 rpm, I would replace the vct's and see if the noise goes away.

Good luck.

 

Has anyone ever heard what the root cause of the cam phasers going out or reaching the point of the ticking noise is. I bought my truck new in October of 04 and with the exception of the first 17 miles and the 10 -11 months my daughter drove it back and forth to school I put every mile on it. The only abnormal thing I can ever remember was the first week I had the truck, It would die out as I approached a stop sign at a low coast/idle speed. It did it several times in just a few days so I drove it back to the dealer. As far as I remember, they adjusted the idle. I remember losing fuel economy Just a little bit. I didn't write everything down but in those first few weeks I remember getting almost 500 miles per tank around town. 30 gal. tank probably 25-27 gal. After the adjustment it dropped to closer to 350-400 miles between fill-ups. I've always wondered if there was a cause and effect from that. I didn't know anything about the phasers at the time and had no reason to think that little idle adjustment would mean anything at all other than a little bit of fuel economy.

 

thanks Mac, I agree the lead option is dead last. meaning never gonna happen. Crackpot is spot on. I'm not doing the lockouts either. truck is way too nice to give up HP or economy.
have you changed your transmission fluid and filter yet? I just did Sunday, it made a big difference. I bought a whole case of fluid and a siphon pump. I'm going to change three more quarts in another week and again another week after that. I got that idea from my Honda. they say that's how to best change the tranny fluid in the accord auto trans.

 

There are a lot of causes to the phasers failing, some are slow bleeds in the tensioners causing a drop in oil pressure, some are related to bad vct's (which I would investigate if I were you since you have an 04) and some are caused by long intervals between oil changes. And then some are possibly caused by using the recommended 5w 20. The system works, but it is really finicky and any change to one part of the system can cause problems. I also hate to say that because you have an 04, thag may be part the issue too. Camshafts, rockers and phasers I believe were all revised in 05 and the VCTs were revised at least twice, I think once in 06 and once in 07. Tensioners have also been revised, but I'm not sure when that happened. Anyways, I guess this is a long answer, but thats my two cents.

 

This is all helpful. even If I have to spend $3000-$4000 it's worth it to me. I would know what I have and no payment. I like the idea of a new vehicle but I'm going to have to wait a while. One kid in college, and two coming up.

 

Okay, at long last I have another update!

Managed to install all of the parts I had ordered, and the engine now runs whisper smooth.

Upon finishing the project however, I noticed that the brake booster line had gotten disconnected from the back of the intake and I was getting a high oil temp p0198 and a lean bank 2 position 1 sensor p2197 code. Figuring the lean code was from the vaccuum leak, I pulled the front driveshaft, unbolted the shift linkage, reached up and finally got the line back on.

The oil temp issue was simple. I had put the plug in the sensor, but hadn't fully seated it. Got it seated and no more code. Goody.

So I fired the beast up and pulled out to the gas station, but something still didnt feel right. Sure enough, right after leaving the station, it started stumbling all over itself and flagged another p2197 code. Now here is where it gets interesting.

I came home in defeat once again, took a shower and crawled in bed to reheat my body from laying on the cold concrete thinking "Now what other dumb thing did I leave disconnected" and drifted off to sleep. Got up, started putting this post together, started looking at my logs, to get the codes for you guys and sure enough, that code has been here all the time, right from the beginning, but because it was so long ago that I pulled the codes, I missed it somehow!

So what the heck could it be? I don't have a realtime scanner, just torque on my phone and an elm327 plug, so other than get and clear codes I don't have much to go on. Any ideas? I have a voltmeter, so I can check that tomorrow, but it would be nice to have some idea where to look.

Thanks in advance for any info.

 

If you've got an ELM327 and Torque, you have damn near the best realtime scanner that you could have. If you don't have Torque "Pro", you are still 90% the way there. Just don't be such a cheapskate, (lol) and pay the $4.95 to download the "Pro" version. You can set up a couple of gauges to monitor fuel trims, fuel rail pressure, and O2 sensors on graph gauges and get a direction real quick.


You could have an electrical connection or wiring problem associated with Bank 1 upstream O2 sensor or otherwise it is trying unsuccessfully to correct for an over rich condition. -- an injector problem or excessive fuel pressure. The latter is unlikely if its on one bank only - but the DTC may simply be showing up on bank1 first. You will be able to see by the fuel trims and the O2 graph gauges if bank 2 is also involved.


Good Luck

 

Thanks for the info torqued. I actually do have the pro version, just haven't really had the time to fool around with it much. Actually owned it long before I got this truck, but never had a use for it, because until I bought this truck, nothing I had even had codes. It truly is amazing what 10 dollars for the sensor and software buys these days..


Still haven't had time to get out there and graph everything, so hopefully sometime soon that time will make itself available. Always it is work and family, so little time to tinker ever.


Fuel pressure was between 45 and 49 psi if memory serves. I never really looked at the numbers other than that they were definitely nonzero voltages on all 4 O2 sensors. Also if memory serves, cat temp seemed to be around 800-825F, can that really be true? They weren't even on that long, so is that just calculated, by the O2 voltage being reported, or could that be the actual temp?


I will try hard to make the diagnosing time tonight, but as I stated earlier it's hard to make everything fit. It has taken me since April to get this far.


Thanks again.

 

I completely understand. Then when you 'retire', (supposedly) you're not supposed to have as many things you HAVE to do - but the god damn days get shorter on you and the net result is the same.


Anyway, we take it as it comes.


Download latest version of Torque from the Play store. I'm not a complete user's guide, but have considerable experience with it - and am an old process control programmer. A Couple of suggestions that will help you avoid redoing things: Create "Vehicle Profiles" for each of your vehicles, and fill them out complete and accurately (They are used in many areas where Torque calculates things). You can also define the maximum number of dashboard screens you want for each vehicle. I set mine to 15. Then 'set' the active Profile to your vehicle and install the "FORD" custom PIDs through the Settings > "Manage Custom Sensors/PIDs" screen. This way, your custom dashboards, all gauges, pids, and custom displays you create are unique to that vehicle. THEN- When you 'set' the active vehicle - say to your wife's car - the dashboard screens are applicable to her's, perhaps a GM brand or whatever.

45 - 49 sounds a little high. Mine runs pretty constantly between 39.5 and 40. My Fuel Pump Duty Cycle runs around 19% to 25%. Fuel pressure of Forty-five to Forty-nine could well result in injectors delivering too much fuel at a given injector pulse width. But I actually think (although IDK) that that would produce a P0172 or P0175 (rich bank 1 & 2) before the O2 sensor1 pukes a P2197, or P0420 (catalyst efficiency low). But as soon as you hook up Torque, you are going to know.


The gauges screen I set up recently to test something would actually work good for you in this case too: I posted a series of them here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post16695834 - trying to settle a disagreement - which failed to prove me right, but that's another story. All of the parameters are available from Torque's standard sensor/pid list. I have created my own LOOP PID to reverse the logic and make the guage read "ON" for closed loop instead of "ON" for open loop.


Just go to one of your blank dashboard screens and long touch - and Add a guage (follow the prompts) and you can set up a screen similar to the linked screens.

800º to 825ºF actually does sound about right after your cats start working. It would have to be calculated as there is no actual temp sensor associated with them. Also, I think the selection is ghosted out (Not Green) in the Torque selection screen. I do not know if it will calculate them.

Hope this helps get you started with the neat Torque tool.

 

Okay, got about 15 minutes with the truck tonight and so I apologize if this is a little sloppy in advance.

Fuel pressure was right where you suggested it should be, 38-42 was about where it was, even when revving.

Fuel trims would look good, then all of a sudden they would spike at 50 percent on bank 2. sometimes they'd spike to -25 also.. pretty weird. I'm not talented or organized enough to correlate the relationship between the fast trim and the o2 sensors, but I noticed at some points bank 2 would just drop to 0v for about 20 seconds or so, then swing back up to rich, presumably because once it was functioning again itould actually work properly until it would do it again.

I also noticed the throttle was high at about 15 percent with no foot pressure at all and would hit a high of about 74 percent mashed. I suspect I can "teach" the throttle to learn wot and fully closed, so I am not too worried about that.

Being as this has OEM O2 sensors in it, I think I am going to take a chance and just replace the front ones to be sure. Might be a waste, but I figure if nothing else, it should help with fuel mileage.

I did notice the "swing" of the second position sensors started to level out between roughly .4 and .6 volts, so even though the cats may be a bit restricted I think they must still be functioning somewhat.

The front ones were all over the place and seemed to wander way rich, and then way lean for seconds at a time. Not sure if that is normal or not.


Your thoughts? Should I replace at least the front ones? Is there a difference between Motorcraft units or Bosch or Denso ones?

 

WOW! THE ABSOLUTE VALUE OF TORQUE proves itself again! I had mis-read the code description of P2197, and in my prior post was thinking it was Bank 1. All the OTHER codes considered are for Bank 1. Torque shows the problem is on Bank 2.

Initially - I would take one step at a time, and do the Torque investigation again.


I don't think O2 sensors fail in such a way as to become 'flaky'. HOWEVER, I am a very strong advocate of preventively replacing O2 sensors every 100,000 miles or so. If yours have never been replaced, I would strongly suggest starting there - at least with both front ones. I believe they become 'lazy', or 'slow' in response to changes in richness, and I believe they drift out of 'calibration' with age/use. They are such an absolute critical component in the closed loop fuel metering process - if they are not producing EXACTLY 450 millivolts at the ideal fuel/air ratio of 14.7 - then ALL BETS ARE OFF. Right? I think Bosch or any quality non-Motorcraft brand is OK.


Your fuel pressure sounds fine. It should remain constant (even when revving). The correct 'amount' of fuel being delivered by a given injector pulse width is calibrated at a certain fuel rail pressure. That's why the fuel pump is driven by a 'duty cycle' controlled by the FPDM.

As for your Fuel Trim (on bank 2) going NUTS occasionally -- ??? I've never known of an O2 sensor (The primary component effecting Fuel Trim) to become 'FLAKY' unless there were a intermittent loose connection or short in the wiring. THAT would definitely make the O2 voltage go to absolute ZERO. So as part of replacing O2's, I would do a very careful inspection of all O2 harness wiring, and (with battery disconnected), unplug, clean and re-plug the PCM connectors also.


*** I noticed something in your 3rd paragraph eerily similiar to the controlled test I was doing in the post I linked. https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post16695834
Re-reading your posts of this thread I noticed you have complained of 'misfires'. Given the age of your truck, it would not be abnormal for the COP plugs to have some broken plastic clips that snap them down. If so, it is possible the rubber gromet inside has pushed the plug apart enough to cause an intermittent connection in the COP primary. Notice in the linked post - that is exactly what I was doing was jurking a COP plug off #1. And it made the Fuel trims AND O2 go to ZERO volts. What I never quiet figured out was why it did it to BOTH banks - but it did. But just a thought in your situation - could you have a flaky connection in a COP plug somewhere???


Don't know 'WHICH' throttle position you were monitoring, TP, TPA, or TPB, but given what all goes on within the 'drive-by-wire' system, 15% with your foot off the pedal is probably normal with your foot off the pedal, and 74% mashed - for the time being anyway.


Sounds like your CATs were warming up and beginning to work - which is normal for them to sorta' track upstream O2 for a little while, then settle down to around .5 - .7 volts while engine is idling or under light load / driving conditions. Under those conditions, (when the system is in 'Closed Loop') the front ones should swing between .1 and .9 volts constantly as the PCM is lengthening / shortening injector pulse widths about 6 times a second striving to maintain a perfect straddle across the .45 volt optimum reading from the upstream O2's. Changes in load, rpm, conditions will be reflected quiet quickly. (I test/challenge them by spraying starting fluid or propane into the intake - and watch them go NUTS high.). The down ones basically just monitor how efficiently cats are doing their job consuming excess fuel that didn't get burned up in the combustion process. If the downstream ones basically track the front ones and never settle down - it's "Adios CATS".

 

One thing I noticed while slipping the vacuum hose back on is that the previous tech must've crushed the wiring harness when performing the recall. All of the conduit was shattered. It would be no surprise that there was an open in that harness, the way it was smashed.


Kinda torks me off that someone would do that and then leave it that way. I know the conduit gets brittle, but at least inspect everything and then carefully tape it up. That's called due diligence. I know it's warranty flat rate, but c'mon.


No idea where the recall was done, so I can't really go back to them and complain.


I think other than replacing the sensors and inspecting the wiring I am at the end of my abilities. I can fix most things, fitting it in as time provides here or there and do an excellent job, but this sort of stuff, where I need time to diagnose and really look at stuff- if it isn't obvious, prolly not going to ever figure it out.


It might just be time to throw in the towel and pay for a diagnosis. I can still do the work once it is figured out I guess. It's just hard to make time to concentrate on all the details. It's dark when I get off of work, and the weekends are usually pretty much someone else's, so If someone else can spend 2 hours to figure it out, that might be my best bet.


Thanks again for all the advice.


I'll let you know what I decide to do next.

 

Agreed.

Understand about the time thing.


I will say you're almost there. You have pretty much done the diagnostics. Bank 2 upstream oxygen sensor is a breeze to swap out with about any kind of O2 socket, or perhaps even an open end if she isn't rusted in there too tight. If that didn't make a difference in the readings Torque gives you - Then Ringing out wires and/or replacing the Bank1 upstream O2 is a different story.

I've done mine twice (220,000 miles), but I have to have a helper. I remove the R/F tire, plastic wheel well liner and position a 3/8 drive 'offset' O2 sensor socket up from underneath while a helper (who can see / feel the sensor) positions the socket on it. That has to be repeated for about each 1/4 turn or so till you can screw it out. The harness connector is equally hard to get to up between the bell housing and firewall, but it can be done - with some sweat / frustration. You'll threaten to cut a hole in the firewall - but DON'T. That's not cool! Lol.


Whatever you decide, I'll be pulling for you and will be interested in the outcome.