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Need quick help that local dealerships can't handle

 
  #1  
Old 02-03-2016, 05:31 PM
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Need quick help that local dealerships can't handle

I promise I'll be brief.
1995 F-150 4x4 302 5.0 5 speed. replaced oil pump and pickup screen when I put new clutch and opan gasket. Truck ran well but my brand new mechanical OP gauge read 40-60 initially and would drop to 10 psi or lower at warm idle.

SOOO.... Now we're replacing the main bearings and rod bearings in an effort to fix this. We pulled the bearings and everywhere we've been to order replacements can't seem to figure out if they were .10, .20, STD, etc. So we gave them what looks like the OEM Ford # stamped in the bearings directly above the Ford symbol with no luck.

We were assured by two local parts places that they were standard size, so we ordered them and put all the main bearings on today and went to turn the crank to do the Rods and WHOA, crank will not turn when it turned freely before we changed main bearings and during the main bearing change it was still moveable. Thinking they may have given us the wrong bearings. However, we visited every auto parts store in the county, and visited the Ford dealership, called several other Ford Dealerships, and now I'm at my wits end.

The bearing #s are as follows C50E-6211AB, C50E-6A338-A-B, F4TE6A3398A
both the first two numbered bearings stamped with Ford stamp and 395 the 395 on one has an F, the other is a J. The other bearing is stamped 395 but no letter.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get this done and get my DD back on the road. Thanks in advance

Many Thanks,

Squirrel Man
 
  #2  
Old 02-03-2016, 06:01 PM
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why not take it to a machine shop and have them measure it? They should be able to tell you for each journal.

Dropping oil pressure at idle is not always bad, my truck does it too.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:09 PM
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We're doing all this with the motor still in the truck. So the machine shop is kind of last resort. I had the Ford dealership local parts guy measure the old bearings and he came up with readings not available on his parts screen.

I'm basically looking for a way to cross-reference these stamped numbers on what is obviously a Ford OEM part, to determine whether or not I have the correct bearings.

We installed all the main bearings very slowly and carefully and seated then torqued to tech specs. But now the crank will not turn, so I can only assume the bearings are not the correct size. I'm relatively new to internal motor work but have a mentor helping and his conclusion is that the bearings must not be the correct size. As he keeps cussin at me "Boy a thousandth might as well be a mountain" haha

Thanks for the quick response Rikil, much appreciated boss.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:20 PM
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This link Ford bearing numbers decode...

says "Often bearings are colour coded to identify the various grades, this marking disappears when the engine has been run for a while, which isn't very helpful."

He mentions 'grades' but did Ford have different grades (toughness) of bearings? I wonder if he means size.

In talking about the same parts I found this "No excess number on it means simply a stock size" on a page I translated here - Lagerschalen 302 motor - Dutch Mustang & Ford Forum

Maybe remove the bearings and install one by one...after each one see where it gets too hard to turn.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:23 PM
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Based on my search those numbers don't tell anything about bearing size, if over or undersized they'd be marked on the back.

Problem is if it needed either one of those, it would rotate with standard bearings installed.

Of the block had been line board requiring oversized bearings, if the crank had been machined it would require undersized...working from memory here chance I have it backwards.

If either or both of those where done and standard size where installed the crank would be loose not too tight to rotate.

Sounds like you need to check your work, check the rear seal etc see if you can see where something didn't go quite as it should have. A bearing slightly rotated from where it should be for example or the rear seal put in backwards? End of one slightly overlapping the other?

Been many years since I've done any of that kinda work and memory not what it used to be so its possible the seal wouldn't have anything to do with it, not possible to install it backwards.

You installed the bearings with the backside of them and the block/main caps clean and dry correct? Didn't use some loctite or RVT or anything such as that to "hold" them in place?

Start by cracking each cap loose one at a time then see if it will rotate, doing so would lead you to the one journal causing you grief if it is limited to one for example.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:25 PM
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It sounds like the bearing needs to be undersized, i know it sounds odd but when a engine is being rebuilt, you oversize the pistons, but grind down the crank. With the old bearing out you are probably getting measurements showing under standard as the crank was picking up material off of the bearing itself. The right fix is to pull the crank grind it and go back with standard bearings, the easy fix is to get some undersized bearings and plastigage to determine the correct size, i wish i could tell you something easier but it isnt.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:39 PM
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DanR1 We definitely cleaned each cap AND bolts with MEK and dried before installing. Every bearing on the main was also cleaned and lubed with clean oil on the crank/contact side.

We had been turning the crank back and forth to remove main/rod caps by using a breaker bar and socket on the crank nut on the inside of the fan pulley. The crank was turning fine then, but as soon as we torqued down all the main cap bolts and went to turn it again slightly to torque the two rod caps we'd already done, it was extremely tight and I'm stumped as to why unless the bearings were the wrong size???

The guy helping me is an experienced mechanic and has done this numerous times and he is very meticulous with everything so I'd hate to call him out on putting something in backwards or wrong without being 100% sure, he's already donating days of his time to me, and I dont want to sound rude or ungrateful.

Thanks for all the tips, please keep them coming, I'm printing them all out so his ol azz can read them in BIG print Hahaha
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel Man View Post
We're doing all this with the motor still in the truck.......

Its best to pull the engine out, "rolling" bearings into a engine just above the cross member is going to cause issues like what you have.

If you noticed on the bearing inserts there are notches to keep them from spinning. Got to get them exactly lined up or jamming will occur along with damage to bearing inserts or worse the crank and/or caps.

I have "rolled" bearings into a engine once before, but it was a front wheel drive car so no cross member was in the way. I had issues just of what you are having due to not getting the bearing insert properly placed, but I got them in after some time. Unfortunately a week later the engine threw a rod and ate up the piston, crank and block probably due to hidden damage from the bearing roll job.......
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel Man View Post
DanR1 We definitely cleaned each cap AND bolts with MEK and dried before installing. Every bearing on the main was also cleaned and lubed with clean oil on the crank/contact side.

We had been turning the crank back and forth to remove main/rod caps by using a breaker bar and socket on the crank nut on the inside of the fan pulley. The crank was turning fine then, but as soon as we torqued down all the main cap bolts and went to turn it again slightly to torque the two rod caps we'd already done, it was extremely tight and I'm stumped as to why unless the bearings were the wrong size???

The guy helping me is an experienced mechanic and has done this numerous times and he is very meticulous with everything so I'd hate to call him out on putting something in backwards or wrong without being 100% sure, he's already donating days of his time to me, and I dont want to sound rude or ungrateful.

Thanks for all the tips, please keep them coming, I'm printing them all out so his ol azz can read them in BIG print Hahaha
Yes understandable and yea is a awkward spot to be in especially when the guy is donating his time, the fact remains something is wrong.

Don't go in assuming anything heck working under a truck doing that exacting work perhaps not very well lit and or working in shadow part of the time isn't easy to do so lead in with that.

Simply tell him you would like him to review everything done and you're more than willing to help with that in anyway you can. Hold light/shine a light for him where ever he wants it.. a very bright light...., get him the tools needed offer second par of eye ***** whatever.
Work together to find the problem and when and if do find something that went wrong be sure and blow it off as completely understandable due to conditions you expected him to work in because it would be.

Again it might be as simple as one bearing ended up slightly overlapping its mate and just didn't see it, that sort of thing isn't unheard of it can happen to anyone.

Whatever it is he didn't do it on purpose so make sure he knows you feel that way about it going in, and that your confidence in him being up to the job hasn't wavered one bit from the start of the project.

I bet its something simple and you guys will find it if you look, again crack them loose one at a time then trying to turn it would be how I'd start out.

If it is free you can move it a little bit with one loose make sure you don't spin it. At that point you'll have to loosen things up drop it down a little remove that bearing and see what happen. Spinning much at all could do damage the crank journal, you certainly don't want that at this point.
 
  #10  
Old 02-03-2016, 09:07 PM
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The old bearings on the non contact size should have had .010 or .020 stamped in them,Theres a chance you have the wrong size bearings or you might have gotten some dirt in there.

I would pull the motor out, the time you spend on your back trying to fight putting bearings in you could have easily pulled it out,put it on a stand,installed new bearings and seals and put it back in.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:20 PM
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this ..."I would pull the motor out, the time you spend on your back trying to fight putting bearings in you could have easily pulled it out,put it on a stand,installed new bearings and seals and put it back in."

seems like every time i try to take a shortcut in auto repairs i wind up wishing i had just done it the "hard" way the first time.
 
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:58 PM
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Like someone above said , loosen one cap at a time and see if it will spin. You know it is in the mains because it spun till you torqued them. Also make sure the main caps are not turned around 180 degrees. Would be easy to do working upside down. You can always measure the diameter of the crank and check with the specs to find the correct size of the bearings.
 
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by joey2fords View Post
this ..."I would pull the motor out, the time you spend on your back trying to fight putting bearings in you could have easily pulled it out,put it on a stand,installed new bearings and seals and put it back in."

seems like every time i try to take a shortcut in auto repairs i wind up wishing i had just done it the "hard" way the first time.
The "hard" way usually ends up being the easy way I've found out.It's like trying to do it the cheapest way usually gets more expensive.
 
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Old 02-09-2016, 03:25 PM
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Soooo.... Here's the update. After asking around and considering all advice, I have come to a couple conclusions. One is that the bearing that is restricting crank movement is DEFINITELY a rod bearing not a main. Put the main's on, cracked loose the rod caps, and crank turned with good compression even after they were torqued. Slowly started to re-tighten the rods and thats when the crank ceased to move.

We got a micrometer and measured the rod journal which were 2.16562
The Ford specs I found said the standards were 2.123 and allows for .001 or .002 clearance. I'm horrible at math, but wouldn't Undersized bearings .040 under standard give me the allowable .002 clearance?
After explaining the findings to a few OLD Ford heads, they all said they'd never heard of standard mains and undersized rods. Any ideas here?

My "theory" was that someone possible spun a rod and caused damage to the crank rod journal, then pulled the crank and polished down the rod journals to get remove a scratch or burr or something. Causing at least ONE of the rod journals to require an undersize bearing? or am I way off?

I don't really have the equipment or area to just pull the motor and crank etc. I'm a poor country boy who's losing money every day I can't get this truck fixed. I've got it pulled into my carport with concrete floor and every tool/air tool you could want. So if it's not 100% necessary I doubt I'll be able to just pull the motor and make it easy on me.

Odd side question... Main Caps have arrows, the arrows should all be pointing at the fan-end of the crank correct? Just double-checking myself.

THANKS FOR ALL AND ANY HELP YA'LL! Much Appreciated!!
 
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Old 02-09-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel Man View Post
Soooo.... Here's the update. After asking around and considering all advice, I have come to a couple conclusions. One is that the bearing that is restricting crank movement is DEFINITELY a rod bearing not a main. Put the main's on, cracked loose the rod caps, and crank turned with good compression even after they were torqued. Slowly started to re-tighten the rods and thats when the crank ceased to move.

We got a micrometer and measured the rod journal which were 2.16562
The Ford specs I found said the standards were 2.123 and allows for .001 or .002 clearance. I'm horrible at math, but wouldn't Undersized bearings .040 under standard give me the allowable .002 clearance?
After explaining the findings to a few OLD Ford heads, they all said they'd never heard of standard mains and undersized rods. Any ideas here?

My "theory" was that someone possible spun a rod and caused damage to the crank rod journal, then pulled the crank and polished down the rod journals to get remove a scratch or burr or something. Causing at least ONE of the rod journals to require an undersize bearing? or am I way off?

I don't really have the equipment or area to just pull the motor and crank etc. I'm a poor country boy who's losing money every day I can't get this truck fixed. I've got it pulled into my carport with concrete floor and every tool/air tool you could want. So if it's not 100% necessary I doubt I'll be able to just pull the motor and make it easy on me.

Odd side question... Main Caps have arrows, the arrows should all be pointing at the fan-end of the crank correct? Just double-checking myself.

THANKS FOR ALL AND ANY HELP YA'LL! Much Appreciated!!
I'm not savvy when it comes to lower engine mechanical stuff but I certainly wouldn't be doing that job under the truck and lying on the ground. If your loosing money everyday due to truck not fixed then I would suggest quickly find someone who had a picker and pull the engine out. If your buddy is mechanic does he not have one you can use?

No harder but easier way to get it done but I think you will save more time in the long run and make it easier on you and your buddy by pulling motor. Look at it this way at least while engine is out you can clean up engine bay and paint the block

Sorry not much help but I only agree with others and we'll I also understand trying to save money and just get the job done but you may find out it was better to go the entire way instead of shortcut. Good luck to you and I hope it is a easy fix.
 

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