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Somebody recently posted here on FTE that they wanted air bags front and rear for their excursion. It got me thinking.
Giving the oem spring setup and the fact many of us have installed new springs to lift our vehicles to a more desirable ride height as well as many people install bags to level out the rear of a vehicle when towing.
I ask this from the stand point I have been looking to buy another EX to build as a project and have been thinking of doing a Street Rod-esque build, while I don't want it slammed to the point of being impractacle to drive around town I definitely want the lowered stance that a sagged stock excursion has with some fat tires on 20"s fitting smartly into the fender wells.
So my question is,
Why not add front and rear bags to a sagged out stock suspension excursion ?
Looking at the whole lowered truck scene it almost seems like bags on all 4 corners would be a viable option instead of replacing sagged springs for many Excursion owners. So from a tech stand point what am I missing ?
That the sagged out stock springs are extremely prone to axle wrap and the associated passive rear steer to start. Adding airbags to them will only further exacerbate the undesirable qualities of them, especially when inflated to add lift. Same as adding a larger lift block, just as you yourself have mentioned in other threads in the past.
If someone didn't care about that, then airbags could be a way to go. However in terms of simplicity and usually cost effectiveness, swapping springs is way easier and cheaper for the average wrench looking to improve their vehicle within budget and time constraints.
I have AirLift "Ultimate" air bags on all four corners; but if you air it down, it rides & handles like crap... just like it did before I put them on.
With 25 - 30 psi it sits, rides, and handles like (I think) it would/should with new stock springs. With 75 - 80 psi it sits high and rides rough and bounces over bumps & railroad tracks.
There is no "rear steer" even pulling a loaded U-Haul with the truck packed to the front seatbacks or towing my boat at 80 mph. No "axle wrap" pulling out tree stumps Thanksgiving morning, either.
But everybody has their own ideas as to how they should ride/handle... I have never ridden in a "new" one or one with new springs; so I dunno.
Installation took about 2 hours for two of us; cost was about $600... I have the air valves through the front & rear license plate holes; no tank, compressor, controller or gauges (to leak).
Axle wrap isn't going to be a factor since I will not be towing or doing full throttle starts, Just driving around like a responsible adult.
As far as blocks vs bags and axle wrap.
Blocks increase the leverage the axle exerts on the springs by moving the centerline of the axle further away from where the axle housing mounts to the spring thus changing the fulcrum.
Bags,
Bags change the arc of the spring, the springs arc doesn't affect the axles leverage point the way blocks do and will not cause any more wrap then might occur without bags and the springs in a sagged state.
Torque steer, or as you called it rear steer
In the case of the Ex, contrary to what the sellers of some "suspension aid" parts companies are trying to tell people, rear steer in the ex is a result of worn out components not axle wrap. Saggy stock, blocked or bagged... An Ex is going to wander down the road if it has worn out suspension and steering parts.
While I only have air bags on the rear - I added them after I did the spring swap.
The V/Modded B for me fixed the sloppy feel of the suspension and the steering wander, but I found I didn't like the sag when towing, so the bags were added only to counter that.
I considered just doing air bags, but the cost didn't make sense to me. I got my springs and U bolts for under $400 - the setup I'd have wanted in air bags would have been closer to $1200 or more.
Without the need to tow, and with your desire to lower the rig, air bags might work for you - if your wallet is ready for the hit.
I was not thinking of building one of my typical over the top creations, thus I will not be using a kelderman suspension or custom building a linked bag setup,
Just been thinking of picking up one of the inexpensive v10 ex's I have been seeing lately for a fun project.
Actually I dont want to lower it more then a sagged Ex already sits. Thinking I could just use some basic off the shelf bag kit to keep the front from bottoming out when riding at the sagged ride height. Filling the wheel wells with the right wheel/tire combo will achieve the look I am after with put lowering it any further.
Hmmmm, come to think of it. I should probably consider 2wds in my search then I could make a ....... OH wait. See how it starts ? It always starts out simple and then....
Didn't think you were - just saying that so long as you aren't towing or wanting top end performance - air bags might just work for you...for a price.
Agree though - a 2wd might let you get a little lower (although I'm NOT knowledgeable about the 2wd suspension). Let us know if you proceed and what your end solution is.
Torque steer, or as you called it rear steer
In the case of the Ex, contrary to what the sellers of some "suspension aid" parts companies are trying to tell people, rear steer in the ex is a result of worn out components not axle wrap. Saggy stock, blocked or bagged... An Ex is going to wander down the road if it has worn out suspension and steering parts.
While I do agree that worn out component can and do contribute to wander and rear/torque steer that doesn't account for the fact that many brand new EXs suffered from the condition. While mine when I bought it at 65k miles didn't have the wander when unloaded it most certainly has tons of rear steer with a heavy toyhauler hitched up. I can't imagine that the rear suspension was worn out by 65k.
People that don't seriously tow aren't going to notice it anywhere near as much and think they don't share the same problems... Then there's those 5.4 guys that don't make enough power to have any issues anyways Mine was fine unladen or towing something light (~4000lbs), even at 180k miles when I bought it. But the instant I hooked up to an 11,000 pound load it was catastrophically bad.
I'm with Tom, my aunt and uncle as well as my neighbors bought theirs new. Neighbors bought it in 2000 when they came out and my uncle got his 2004 with 13,000 miles on it for Christmas that same year. They both sucked when towing, the neighbor's with their 29' TT and especially my uncle's when dragging the triple axle horse box. We got stuck on the ranch and you could see the rear axle loading and unloading from the torque being sent to it.
I haven't needed to tow anything over about 5000# so far, so I can't address that... at 4000# - 5000# you can't even tell there's a trailer back there at 80 mph.
I guess if you plan on towing "heavy" you should take the advice of the guys that do that. For "normal" use, this thing works great.
@Rob. 10-4, I'll do a build thread if I end up finding one and messing with it. The last 2 I bought I just fixed and flipped. But I have been wanting a project and a 2wd just might be the ticket.
According to the instructions, the four air bags lift 10,000# at 100 psi... so over about 70 psi the whole weight of the truck is carried by the air bags and the ride is pretty harsh.
At 30 psi they're taking about 750# off each spring, which seems to be the "happy place"... at least for the condition of my particular worn springs.
I have nothing against new springs, I was just trying to help answer the question that was asked.
11-30-2015, 08:36 AM
