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7.3L occasional rough running, got AE, what's next?

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7.3L occasional rough running, got AE, what's next?

 
  #1  
Old 07-22-2015, 11:31 AM
jaymcjay
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7.3L occasional rough running, got AE, what's next?

Hello all.
I see that I've had an account since 2006, and have been happily lurking since!
Until now it seems that all of the issues I've had with my truck are something I could search out, and then remedy on my own.

A bit about my truck.
2001 F250 CC SB 4x4 175k miles
Wicked wheel, 6637 filter, DP tuner, Summit 5" exhaust, pressure regulator somewhere in the boost circuit to fool the computer a bit....

Every few times I drive the truck it will stumble and maybe even stall. The issue feels something like a CPS problem, although I've swapped out a few CPS to see if I by chance had a bad one in the engine as well as a bad one in the glove box. No changes. I was driving home from work one afternoon and it was running particularly bad. I stopped off at a local garage (who doesn't work on diesels and was reluctant to plug in....but did because he's a nice guy). He plugged in with his snap-on tool and came up with P0603 and P1211. The P0603 seems to be nearly inevitable with a tuner. Check. P1211 sounds like it could be an issue with a number of things, but I tried to attack the free and cheap issues first. I dropped my tank and had a look inside. I was hoping to find a squirrel wrapped around the sending unit, but there was a disappointingly small amount of crud. I cleaned it up and put it back in, then changed my fuel filter. No improvements.

So I decided to get with the program and buy AutoEnginuity. Got it. Even did some reading in class and did the initial homework assignment on page 2 or 3.
Seems like the best thing to do it hook up, set up some parameters to monitor, and drive around recording until the problem happens. But.........what parameters do I want to monitor? I don't want to overtax the OBDII bus with too many requests such that my data looks like crap.

A few other things............
In the last year I swapped out the valve-cover gaskets & harnesses with an all-in-one molded setup.
About a month back I replaced the exhaust backpressure sensor and tube.

Thanks All!
 
  #2  
Old 07-22-2015, 12:32 PM
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Try starting the truck with the ICP sensor unplugged, instead of using the sensor the PCM will use a stored data table. It will set the check engine light and code, but if the truck doesn't stumble and stall then you ICP sensor could be the problem.

As far as monitoring is concerned. If you datalog:

ICP
ICP duty Cycle
FIPW
RPM
Engine oil temp
vehicle speed
 
  #3  
Old 07-22-2015, 12:36 PM
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Then we can e-mail you ExPaCampers automatic graphing program if you have Microsoft Excel. It's a great troubleshooting tool for out 7.3L's.

If not one of the FTE folks can graph it and post it up - that way you can see the whole datalog at once or just certain blocks.

Make sure you start datalogging prior to starting the engine, so we can see the cranking ICP & rpm's.

add vehicle voltage to the data logging as well......
 
  #4  
Old 07-22-2015, 01:02 PM
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Sure, no problem trying out the software. It uses MS-Excel and automates a bunch of stuff for you and makes the graphs.

The relationship between different sensors can be quite telling. The folks here are pretty good at using those graphs to sniff out problem areas.

I monitor my obd readings about 90% of the time. I'm still in the fine-tuning mode right now, but it's so easy to monitor, I'll likely continue after being satisfied. Lol

Just drop me a PM when you're ready.
 
  #5  
Old 07-22-2015, 02:13 PM
Thomas White
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Listed here are some Data List Monitoring Parameters and Delta's. Primarily this list is for no start / hard start. But, I have been using these for years on other scan tools as well as AE:

V-PWR 10.5 VDC Minimum. Other wise, the PCM will NOT allow the CMP to communicate.

While Cranking: RPM 100 RPM Minimum (0 - CMP Suspect)

Idle: ICP 500 PSI or 3.4 MPAM Minimum

KOEO: ICPv Spec 0.20v - 0.30v

Idle: ICP Duty Cycle% Spec: 10%-12% at idle, engine at 140F or >

ICP Duty Cycle%: Cranking NTE 20% / 65% is closed. (IPR Suspect)

Idle (750 RPM) FUEL PW: 1 MS - 6 MS (<1 / >6 IDM Suspect)

*V-PWR - If indicating a low voltage condition, check battery voltage, charging system or power and ground circuits to the PCM.

2. ICP - A minimum of 500 PSI (3.4 mPa) is required before the injectors are enabled. No or low oil in the reservoir, system leakage, injector O-Rings, or faulty IPR could cause pressure loss.

Note: If no RPM signal is received, IPR duty cycle will default to 14%

3. FUEL PW - Even though a 1 to 6 mS FUEL PW is shown, it’s possible the IDM did not receive the signal due to a CI or FDCS circuit fault
or internal IDM failure.

4. Batteries. Starter, Cranking = or < 720 AMPS

Batteries should be no lower than 80% of their rated capacity at 80*F

Batteries: Group 65 / 1000 AMP / 850 CCA

Both Batteries should be within 10% of each other and tested separately.

Rotating your Batteries annually has actually showed an increase in life cycle. Why?

Hope this helps,
 
  #6  
Old 07-22-2015, 04:40 PM
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holy cow, thanks for all the quick replies!

I tried unplugging the ICP. The result was that the truck ran differently, but still ran like crap. Just a new, different crap. The stumble was still there, but there was a baseline difference in the way it ran. I plugged it back in and it went back to the previous kind of crap.


I'll get to logging data, and report back!
 
  #7  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:53 PM
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If you're going to do a STOCK Truck run, say 0-75 MPH from a stop, accelerator pedal all the way to the floor, and decal back to idle, You should monitor these at a minimum:

AE Data Run 0-75 MPH

Engine Oil Temperature Input (EOT) (*F) [Min 0.00 - Max 240.00]

Engine RPM (RPM) [Min 0.0 - Max 4000.0]

Exhaust Back Pressure (PSIG) [Min 0.00 - Max 60.00]

Injector Control Pressure (PSIG) [Min 0.00 - Max 3,000.00]

Injector Control Pressure Duty Cycle (%) [Min 0.00 - Max 100.00]

Manifold Absolute Pressure (ATM) [Min 0.00 Max 30.0]

Fuel Injector Pulse Width (ms) Scale: 10.0 [Min 0.00 - Max 0.60]

Transmission Fluid Temperature - Volts (V) [Min 0.00 - Max 5.00]

Transmission Fluid Temperature - (*F) [Min 0.00 - Max 230*F] #2001 and later MY

Vehicle Speed (MPH) [Min 0.0 - Max 100.0]



* Note Minimums and Maximum Values

The file will auto-save as a CVS. Open with EXCEL and convert to graph. I'll post an example at the bottom


-------------------------------------------------------------

To assist in diagnostics...

PERFORMANCE DIAGNOSTIC TESTS

Tools: Tools: Fuel Filter Cap Removal Tool / Flash Light / White Bond Paper / Stop or Wrist Watch w/Second Hand Sweep / DVOM / Vacuum Pressure Test Gauge Bar #014-00761 19-0002 / Fuel Port Adaptor and Pressure Gauge 0-160 PSIG

Step #1: Visual Engine/Chassis Inspection

Tools: Flash Light
Fuel Oil Coolant Electrical Hoses Leaks Check

Step #2 Check for:
a. Contaminates
b. Correct Grade and Viscosity
c. Miles/Hours on oil
d. Correct level.

Tools: White Bond paper

Step #3 Intake/Exhaust Restriction

Tools: Flash Light
a. Inspect air filter and ducts
b. exhaust system
c. Inspect exhaust back pressure device

Step #4 Intake Restriction

Tools: Vacuum Pressure Test Gauge Bar #014-00761 19-0002
a. Check filter minder or measure at WOT with magnehelic gauge.
b. Spec: Magnehelic-2"- 2.5" / Filter Minder / H20

Step #5 Perform KOEO On Demand Test

Tools: OBD-II On-Board Diagnostics, Phase 2 Vehicle Media Communications Unit (Scanner)
a. DTCs set during this test are current faults.
b. Note: IDM DTCs displayed here could be current or historical faults

Step # 6 Retrieve Continuous Trouble Codes

Tools: Bi-Directional Scan Tool
Note: IDM DTCs are cleared when codes are cleared

Step #7 KOEO Injector Electrical Self-Test

Tools: OBD-II On-Board Diagnostics, Phase 2 Vehicle Media Communications Unit (Scanner)
All injectors will momentarily buzz, then individual injectors will Buzz in sequence 1 through 8.

Step #8 Fuel Pressure Tests

Tools: Fuel Port Adaptor and Pressure Gauge 0-160 PSIG / DVOM
8a. Fuel Pressure at the right head
a. Verify that fuel is in the tank and the pump is being powered.
b. Measure fuel pressure at the front of right cylinder head Road Test- engine at full load condition Spec. Measurement / Head 0-160 PSI / WOT 45 PSIG min.
c. If fuel pressure fails low, go to step 8c.
d. If pressure is above min. spec, go to step 8b. 8b. Fuel Pressure at the left head
e. Measure fuel pressure at the front of right cylinder head Road Test- engine at full load condition Spec. Measurement / Head 0-160 PSI / WOT 45 PSIG min.
f. CAUTION: Secure hose away from turbo and exhaust
g. If fuel pressure is below min. spec, replace left check valve > If fuel pressure is above min. spec, Go to step 9.

8c. Electric Fuel Pump Pressure
a. Measure at fuel outlet from electric fuel pump: 45-80 PSIG > Road Test- engine at full load condition 45-80 PSIG
b. If fuel pressure fails low, go to step 8d.
c. If pressure is above min. spec, replace right check valve.

8d. Electric Fuel Pump Inlet Restriction
a. If fuel line is restricted above 6 Hg, check for: blockage between pump and fuel tank.
b. If fuel line is not restricted, inspect regulator valve condition and for debris, If OK replace pump
c. WOT under load Spec: > 42 psig

Step #9 Perform KOER On Demand Test

Step #10 Injection Control Pressure Tests
Tools: Bi-Directional Scan Tool / Stop or Wrist Watch w/Second Hand Sweep

10A. Injection Control Pressure Tests (Oil Aeration - Poor idle quality)
a. All acc. Off
b. Monitor ICP and RPM with Bi-Directional Scan Tool Hold engine speed at 3400 RPM for 3 minutes
c. Spec: ICP: 1800 PSI MAX @ 3,400 RPM

10b. Low Idle Stability (ICP Pressure)
a. Check at low idle, EOT above 180 F
b. Monitor ICP and RPM with the Bi-Directional Scan Tool 400 600 PSIG @ 670 RPMs If engine RPM is unstable, disconnect the ICP sensor, If RPM is still unstable, change IPR and re-test.
c. If RPM smooths out, the ICP sensor is at fault. Note: ICP will default to 725 PSI when disconnected

Step #11 Crankcase Pressure Test
Tools: Vacuum Pressure Test Gauge Bar #014-00761 19-0002
a. Verify engine is at normal operating temp
b. Measure at oil fill with adapter and orifice tool P.N. 5631 & 014-00743 installed.
c. Block breather tube on left valve cover
d. Measure at WOT no load Spec < 3 H20

12. Cylinder Contribution Test
Tools: OBD-II On-Board Diagnostics, Phase 2 Vehicle Media Communications Unit (Scanner) / Stop or Wrist Watch w/Second Hand Sweep

a. Verify that EOT is above 70 F
b. Turn A/C and all accessories off
c. Select Cylinder Contribution from the test menu
d. NOTE: The test will run at idle speed for about 120 sec. and no engine change will be felt during the test

13. Exhaust Restriction

Tools: OBD-II On-Board Diagnostics, Phase 2 Vehicle Media Communications Unit (Scanner) / Stop or Wrist Watch w/Second Hand Sweep
a. Visually inspect exhaust system for damage
b. Verify EBP device is open at WOT in park or neutral
c. Monitor EBP with the Bi-Directional Scan Tool with the engine temperature at 170F minimum at 3400 RPM
d. Spec: 34 PSI Max @ 3,400 RPM

14. Boost Pressure Test

Tools: OBD-II On-Board Diagnostics, Phase 2 Vehicle Media Communications Unit (Scanner) / Vacuum Pressure Test Gauge Bar #014-00761 19-0002

a. Verify that MAP hose is not damaged, plugged or pinched
b. Verify that intercooler hoses or intake are not leaking.
c. Verify that the green Wastegate hose is not plugged.
d. Monitor MGP (manifold gauge pressure) and RPM
e. Road Test - select appropriate gear to obtain desired engine speed and full load on engine (best accomplished climbing hill or truck fully loaded).
f. Spec: MGP 15 PSIG Min

Known Good Sensor KOEO Voltage:

AP: 5 volts in, 0.5-0.7 volts at idle, 4.5 volts at WOT. PID: AP

BARO: 5 volts in, @4.6 volts/14.7 psi at sea level, decreasing as altitude increases.

CMP: high, 12 volts, low, 1.5 volts.

EBP: 5.0 volts in, 0.8-1.0 volts/14.7 psi

EOT: 5.0 volts in, 4.37 [email protected]F, [email protected]F, [email protected]F.

PID: EOT (degrees)

EPR: Exhaust Back Pressure Regulator, also EBP regulator Output: For quicker engine warm-up at cold temperatures. If the IAT is below 37F (50F some models) and the EOT is below 140F (168 some models) the PCM sends a duty cycle signal to a solenoid which controls oil flow from the turbo pedestal. This causes a servo to close a valve at the turbo exhaust outlet. The PCM monitors the EBP input to determine if the EPR needs to be disabled to provide power for increased load, then reapplies the EPR as load demand decreases until EOT or IAT rises.

IAT: 5 volts in, [email protected]F, [email protected]F, [email protected]F.

ICP: 5 volts in, [email protected], and [email protected]

EXBP 10-15psig w/ EBPV closed and not exceed 45psi at WOT Note: EXBP showing low (3-5psi) that barley rises with acceleration indicates bad sensor or plugged tube.

IDM: 110 volt signal to the injectors. Grounds each injector as fuel is required for that cylinder. Fuel Pulse width is increased to deliver more fuel. The IDM sends a feedback signal to the PCM for fault detection.

IVS: 0 volts at idle, 12 volts off idle. PID: IVS (off/on)

MAP: Frequency output; 111Hz / 14.7 psi, 130Hz / 20psi, 167Hz / 30psi.

IPR: Coil OHMS = 10.2 - 10.6

Your screen should look something like this...




Hope this helps,

Tom
 

Last edited by Thomas White; 07-22-2015 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Updated Values for AE added JPG as Example
  #8  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:06 PM
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RPM max 3500 - you won't want to go over that with the engine.

EBP max 55 - 53 is "pegged".

ICP max is 3500 to spot "Stinky Spikes".

FIPW is 0 - 6 ms. If you get a reading of something like 0.3 while it's running, then the Scale Value needs to be adjusted to 10.

Before starting the truck, but the key is on - look at MAP (max 50), BARO (max 5), and EBP - to make sure they sync up.
 
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:15 AM
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couple questions with respect to the first homework assignment from class.
Are these 30psi plateau that I see from my boost fooler regulator?
Is the error between my EBP and MAP OK?
Is there anything obviosly wrong with my truck, based on this graph?

I'll hook up AE for the drive home, and log the data set mentioned above.

Thanks all!
 
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:23 AM
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Another thing....trying to save my truck's configuration. My Vehicle Connectivity menu looks different from Tugly's. Any thoughts?
 
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jaymcjay View Post


Another thing....trying to save my truck's configuration. My Vehicle Connectivity menu looks different from Tugly's. Any thoughts?
Yeah, call AE and complain. They removed the feature and refuse to listen to any of us who have been asking for it back

Probably won't get any satisfaction there, but the more people who tell them their lack of concern for their customers' needs, the more likely they may actually listen...someday
 
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Old 07-23-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jaymcjay View Post

couple questions with respect to the first homework assignment from class.
Are these 30psi plateau that I see from my boost fooler regulator?
Is the error between my EBP and MAP OK?
Is there anything obviosly wrong with my truck, based on this graph?

I'll hook up AE for the drive home, and log the data set mentioned above.

Thanks all!
MAP = xx - 14.7 = Boost

MAP = 30 - 14.7 = 15.5 psig Boost

The 14.7 is generic. That is at sea level. There are devices that will tell you the atm for your area.

As for the other questions, it would be a shot in the dark without the other sensors for comparison and time data.
 
  #13  
Old 07-23-2015, 01:05 PM
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I have a sidebar question here how can/do you guys get all this data cheaply from your trucks? I have a E99 and am baffled at how your getting all these numbers. Is it a newer ECM or something your plugging into? A Bluetooth or something??
 
  #14  
Old 07-23-2015, 01:23 PM
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Ah, another convert to the religion....
 
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Old 07-23-2015, 01:29 PM
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Many Posts on Both Torque Pro and AutoEnginuity......TP being the cheaper of the 2. You have to buy a Bluetooth OBDII Unit with it, You get one with AE (Proprietary). Begin your search for enlightenment!
 

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