any way to activate IRMC valve without engine running?
#1
06-24-2015, 09:45 PM
any way to activate IRMC valve without engine running?
I am still throwing a code for one intake runner stuck closed , unless one of the linkages came off , I don't know how this could happen. The charge motor was replaced last time I had the intake off , I find it easy to remove the intake manifold , but is there any way to energize it on the bench and make sure it works before putting manifold back on ? I don't think the runners would open if you floored it with only the key on .
#2
06-26-2015, 12:29 PM
Posting Guru
I an unaware of a method to energize or operate the charge motor - even after messing around with the old one I took off my truck. I would recommend trying to gain access to a camera to inspect the linkage without removing the manifold.
With my Troque Pro App, I have located and identified three OBDII PIDs that relate to the IMRC valve operation, and from monitoring them, I can tell you the PCM will NOT actuate the IMRC valve with Key Off / Throttle Wide Open. I just tried it. It takes very high RPM's in neutral to get them to actuate. Just in case you have the ability to read live OBD data, the "fault" bit might be set on yours. The relevant PIDs are:
IMRC (IMSC) 1103 b4 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control (ON/OFF)
IMRC F (IMSC F) 162F b6 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Fault (YES/NO)
IMRCM 1634 Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input ( VOLTS)
From personally monitoring these signals, I can say the IMRC valve operates very differently from most stuff I've read on the forums. The ECU moves them around all over the place under varying conditions. Runners basically sit static at their prior position. Any movement is disabled when PID 1103, bit4 is OFF. This "ENABLE" bit comes on briefly only when the ECU wants to "Move" the runners from their prior position. Engine Load / torque at low RPM causes them close (to 12-25º and occasionally absolutely closed - 0º). That happens much more easily and distinctly in cooler ambient and engine operating temperatures. At cruse conditions, runners are about 1/2 open (45º). Under Heavy acceleration they will close at first until RPMs increase, then begin to open to 90º (> 3500), but a shift to second gear will cause them to briefly close (25º) again until R's get back up quiet high. They will open all the way on heavy deceleration or gearing down, or VERY HIGH RPMs (>5000).
The "swirl control" must have a profound effect on the combustion process and emission. I have no idea how the ECU can determine if one runner is stuck closed or open, because there is NO individual bank electrical feedback. I think the IMRC valve is a stepping motor, but has only 4 wires connected to it - and its case is not grounded. So I cannot figure out how it is actuated and/or how the ECU determines its position.
I know this is lots more information than you asked for, but I too am hoping someone knowledgeable will chime in and shed more light on how this GIZZMO, the Intake Manifold Runner Control Valve, works.
With my Troque Pro App, I have located and identified three OBDII PIDs that relate to the IMRC valve operation, and from monitoring them, I can tell you the PCM will NOT actuate the IMRC valve with Key Off / Throttle Wide Open. I just tried it. It takes very high RPM's in neutral to get them to actuate. Just in case you have the ability to read live OBD data, the "fault" bit might be set on yours. The relevant PIDs are:
IMRC (IMSC) 1103 b4 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control (ON/OFF)
IMRC F (IMSC F) 162F b6 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Fault (YES/NO)
IMRCM 1634 Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input ( VOLTS)
From personally monitoring these signals, I can say the IMRC valve operates very differently from most stuff I've read on the forums. The ECU moves them around all over the place under varying conditions. Runners basically sit static at their prior position. Any movement is disabled when PID 1103, bit4 is OFF. This "ENABLE" bit comes on briefly only when the ECU wants to "Move" the runners from their prior position. Engine Load / torque at low RPM causes them close (to 12-25º and occasionally absolutely closed - 0º). That happens much more easily and distinctly in cooler ambient and engine operating temperatures. At cruse conditions, runners are about 1/2 open (45º). Under Heavy acceleration they will close at first until RPMs increase, then begin to open to 90º (> 3500), but a shift to second gear will cause them to briefly close (25º) again until R's get back up quiet high. They will open all the way on heavy deceleration or gearing down, or VERY HIGH RPMs (>5000).
The "swirl control" must have a profound effect on the combustion process and emission. I have no idea how the ECU can determine if one runner is stuck closed or open, because there is NO individual bank electrical feedback. I think the IMRC valve is a stepping motor, but has only 4 wires connected to it - and its case is not grounded. So I cannot figure out how it is actuated and/or how the ECU determines its position.
I know this is lots more information than you asked for, but I too am hoping someone knowledgeable will chime in and shed more light on how this GIZZMO, the Intake Manifold Runner Control Valve, works.
#3
10-22-2015, 12:17 PM
Irmc Pids
I an unaware of a method to energize or operate the charge motor - even after messing around with the old one I took off my truck. I would recommend trying to gain access to a camera to inspect the linkage without removing the manifold.
With my Troque Pro App, I have located and identified three OBDII PIDs that relate to the IMRC valve operation, and from monitoring them, I can tell you the PCM will NOT actuate the IMRC valve with Key Off / Throttle Wide Open. I just tried it. It takes very high RPM's in neutral to get them to actuate. Just in case you have the ability to read live OBD data, the "fault" bit might be set on yours. The relevant PIDs are:
IMRC (IMSC) 1103 b4 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control (ON/OFF)
IMRC F (IMSC F) 162F b6 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Fault (YES/NO)
IMRCM 1634 Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input ( VOLTS)
From personally monitoring these signals, I can say the IMRC valve operates very differently from most stuff I've read on the forums. The ECU moves them around all over the place under varying conditions. Runners basically sit static at their prior position. Any movement is disabled when PID 1103, bit4 is OFF. This "ENABLE" bit comes on briefly only when the ECU wants to "Move" the runners from their prior position. Engine Load / torque at low RPM causes them close (to 12-25º and occasionally absolutely closed - 0º). That happens much more easily and distinctly in cooler ambient and engine operating temperatures. At cruse conditions, runners are about 1/2 open (45º). Under Heavy acceleration they will close at first until RPMs increase, then begin to open to 90º (> 3500), but a shift to second gear will cause them to briefly close (25º) again until R's get back up quiet high. They will open all the way on heavy deceleration or gearing down, or VERY HIGH RPMs (>5000).
The "swirl control" must have a profound effect on the combustion process and emission. I have no idea how the ECU can determine if one runner is stuck closed or open, because there is NO individual bank electrical feedback. I think the IMRC valve is a stepping motor, but has only 4 wires connected to it - and its case is not grounded. So I cannot figure out how it is actuated and/or how the ECU determines its position.
I know this is lots more information than you asked for, but I too am hoping someone knowledgeable will chime in and shed more light on how this GIZZMO, the Intake Manifold Runner Control Valve, works.
With my Troque Pro App, I have located and identified three OBDII PIDs that relate to the IMRC valve operation, and from monitoring them, I can tell you the PCM will NOT actuate the IMRC valve with Key Off / Throttle Wide Open. I just tried it. It takes very high RPM's in neutral to get them to actuate. Just in case you have the ability to read live OBD data, the "fault" bit might be set on yours. The relevant PIDs are:
IMRC (IMSC) 1103 b4 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control (ON/OFF)
IMRC F (IMSC F) 162F b6 Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Fault (YES/NO)
IMRCM 1634 Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input ( VOLTS)
From personally monitoring these signals, I can say the IMRC valve operates very differently from most stuff I've read on the forums. The ECU moves them around all over the place under varying conditions. Runners basically sit static at their prior position. Any movement is disabled when PID 1103, bit4 is OFF. This "ENABLE" bit comes on briefly only when the ECU wants to "Move" the runners from their prior position. Engine Load / torque at low RPM causes them close (to 12-25º and occasionally absolutely closed - 0º). That happens much more easily and distinctly in cooler ambient and engine operating temperatures. At cruse conditions, runners are about 1/2 open (45º). Under Heavy acceleration they will close at first until RPMs increase, then begin to open to 90º (> 3500), but a shift to second gear will cause them to briefly close (25º) again until R's get back up quiet high. They will open all the way on heavy deceleration or gearing down, or VERY HIGH RPMs (>5000).
The "swirl control" must have a profound effect on the combustion process and emission. I have no idea how the ECU can determine if one runner is stuck closed or open, because there is NO individual bank electrical feedback. I think the IMRC valve is a stepping motor, but has only 4 wires connected to it - and its case is not grounded. So I cannot figure out how it is actuated and/or how the ECU determines its position.
I know this is lots more information than you asked for, but I too am hoping someone knowledgeable will chime in and shed more light on how this GIZZMO, the Intake Manifold Runner Control Valve, works.
#4
10-22-2015, 11:59 PM
Posting Guru
FORD Custom PIDs for the IMRC systems
@ fdfitz1468;
It seems that Ford has three (3) separate systems for manipulating intake air. (IMRC) Intake Manifold Runner Control, (IMSC) Intake Manifold Swirl Control, and (IMTV) Intake Manifold Tuning Valve. I am not confident of operational of all three based on information I have been able to find --- and much of it seems conflicting and contradictory. I DO KNOW - my '04, 5.4l 3v uses the IMSC system. (I had to replace this IMSCV on my F150) It has been difficult (and even required some OBDII hacking) to find PID information relating to these systems. PIDs for the other two systems do not respond to query's on the 5.4L PCM, and thus I'm ignorant as to them. The relevant PIDs for the IMSC system were actually listed in my prior post above - though perhaps more subtly than they should have. (They are HEX numbers. They are Mode 2 OBDII requests - and therefore must have "22" preceding them in your Torque Pro App custom PID #.) I've been goofing with various formulas and still question the veracity of my gauge readings for the IMSCV. Actually, I just bought a cheap camera & LED light I plan to cram back there so I can watch inside the truck while driving to "once and for all" figure out exactly what the damn thing does - & when - & why compared to the readings Torque Pro gives me. Then I plan to adjust my formulas to make the gauge match that.
You can comfortably write everything I know on the back of a postage stamp - in long hand. So here goes, including Torque Pro custom PIDs, CMDs, & formulas for the IMSC system.
_______ PID ______ Acrynom ______ Discription __________________________________________ Unit(s)
...... 1103 b4 .... IMRC ....... Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control ........... Yes (1)/No (0)
CMD: 221103 response: 62110300 . Formula {A:4} = test for bit 4 (xxx1 xxxx) true = active
...... 162F b5 .... IMTVF .......Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Fault ............... Yes (1)/No (0)
Cmd: 22162F response: ----------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v //
...... 162F b6 .... IMSCF .......Intake Manifold Swirl Control Fault .............. Yes (1)/No (0)
Cmd: 22162F response: 62162F00 . Formula {A:5} = test for bit 5 ("xx1x xxxx") true = fault
...... 1634 ........IMRCM (IMSCM).Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Monitor Input Bank 1 __ Volts
Cmd: 221634 response:621634FF80.. Formula ([IMRC_sav]*[IMRC_dis])+(((((A*256)+B)/63)*12.5001)*(([IMRC_dis]*-1)+1))
______________(dummy PID used for Variable [IMRC_sav] = “Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor- val sav”
.................PID # TOTALLY Blank in Torque. Formula VAL{Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Monitor}
______________(dummy PID used for variable [IMRC_dis] = "save high bit of IMRCM as disable bit in formula"
.................PID# cmd: 221634 response 621634FF80.. Formula A>7
...... 1635 ....... IMRCM2 ...... Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input Bank 2 (VOLTS)
Cmd: 221635 response: --------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v, used for IMRC systems //
...... 1684 ....... IMTV ....... Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Control %
Cmd: 221684 response: --------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v, used for IMTV systems //
This may all look like hieroglyphics, but this forum does funny things with spaces and tabs that makes it impossible to present a clean table.
This should get you started. If OK with you, I plan to PM additional information to you that would be too big a departure from the thread subject. I have wanted to start a thread about TORQUE PRO Custom PIDs and see if others would lend their knowledge as well. We could make our Torque Apps do everything the dealerships IDS system can do if we can hack ALL the 215 or 220 PIDS that my ECU responds to. Might get it to be a sticky. When I get my PID list verified, polished up and in an spreadsheet, I plan to post the whole damn thing here for the users of numerous scan tools that can query custom PIDs. Ford sure seems to kept the info close to the chest.
Torque dashboard screen set ups (w/ IMRC gauge) showing different operating conditions are here:
LOW RPM Lugging
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_1.jpg
CRUSING
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_2.jpg
PASSING - dropped out of closed loop
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_3.jpg
BTW. Be aware. In Torque Pro, Custom PIDs and Custom Dashboards are unique to EACH Vehicle Profile. Be Sure to have your Vehicle profiles set up like you want them before beganing to add lots of vehicle specific PIDs and/or dashboards - gauges.
Happy Torqueing
It seems that Ford has three (3) separate systems for manipulating intake air. (IMRC) Intake Manifold Runner Control, (IMSC) Intake Manifold Swirl Control, and (IMTV) Intake Manifold Tuning Valve. I am not confident of operational of all three based on information I have been able to find --- and much of it seems conflicting and contradictory. I DO KNOW - my '04, 5.4l 3v uses the IMSC system. (I had to replace this IMSCV on my F150) It has been difficult (and even required some OBDII hacking) to find PID information relating to these systems. PIDs for the other two systems do not respond to query's on the 5.4L PCM, and thus I'm ignorant as to them. The relevant PIDs for the IMSC system were actually listed in my prior post above - though perhaps more subtly than they should have. (They are HEX numbers. They are Mode 2 OBDII requests - and therefore must have "22" preceding them in your Torque Pro App custom PID #.) I've been goofing with various formulas and still question the veracity of my gauge readings for the IMSCV. Actually, I just bought a cheap camera & LED light I plan to cram back there so I can watch inside the truck while driving to "once and for all" figure out exactly what the damn thing does - & when - & why compared to the readings Torque Pro gives me. Then I plan to adjust my formulas to make the gauge match that.
You can comfortably write everything I know on the back of a postage stamp - in long hand. So here goes, including Torque Pro custom PIDs, CMDs, & formulas for the IMSC system.
_______ PID ______ Acrynom ______ Discription __________________________________________ Unit(s)
...... 1103 b4 .... IMRC ....... Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control ........... Yes (1)/No (0)
CMD: 221103 response: 62110300 . Formula {A:4} = test for bit 4 (xxx1 xxxx) true = active
...... 162F b5 .... IMTVF .......Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Fault ............... Yes (1)/No (0)
Cmd: 22162F response: ----------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v //
...... 162F b6 .... IMSCF .......Intake Manifold Swirl Control Fault .............. Yes (1)/No (0)
Cmd: 22162F response: 62162F00 . Formula {A:5} = test for bit 5 ("xx1x xxxx") true = fault
...... 1634 ........IMRCM (IMSCM).Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Monitor Input Bank 1 __ Volts
Cmd: 221634 response:621634FF80.. Formula ([IMRC_sav]*[IMRC_dis])+(((((A*256)+B)/63)*12.5001)*(([IMRC_dis]*-1)+1))
______________(dummy PID used for Variable [IMRC_sav] = “Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor- val sav”
.................PID # TOTALLY Blank in Torque. Formula VAL{Intake Manifold Runner (Swirl) Control Monitor}
______________(dummy PID used for variable [IMRC_dis] = "save high bit of IMRCM as disable bit in formula"
.................PID# cmd: 221634 response 621634FF80.. Formula A>7
...... 1635 ....... IMRCM2 ...... Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input Bank 2 (VOLTS)
Cmd: 221635 response: --------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v, used for IMRC systems //
...... 1684 ....... IMTV ....... Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Control %
Cmd: 221684 response: --------- // does not respond on 5.4L 3v, used for IMTV systems //
This may all look like hieroglyphics, but this forum does funny things with spaces and tabs that makes it impossible to present a clean table.
This should get you started. If OK with you, I plan to PM additional information to you that would be too big a departure from the thread subject. I have wanted to start a thread about TORQUE PRO Custom PIDs and see if others would lend their knowledge as well. We could make our Torque Apps do everything the dealerships IDS system can do if we can hack ALL the 215 or 220 PIDS that my ECU responds to. Might get it to be a sticky. When I get my PID list verified, polished up and in an spreadsheet, I plan to post the whole damn thing here for the users of numerous scan tools that can query custom PIDs. Ford sure seems to kept the info close to the chest.
Torque dashboard screen set ups (w/ IMRC gauge) showing different operating conditions are here:
LOW RPM Lugging
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_1.jpg
CRUSING
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_2.jpg
PASSING - dropped out of closed loop
http://devoll.com/Remote_Images/15-0...reenshot_3.jpg
BTW. Be aware. In Torque Pro, Custom PIDs and Custom Dashboards are unique to EACH Vehicle Profile. Be Sure to have your Vehicle profiles set up like you want them before beganing to add lots of vehicle specific PIDs and/or dashboards - gauges.
Happy Torqueing
Last edited by F150Torqued; 10-23-2015 at 12:05 AM. Reason: foobarred spelling
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post