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Trouble Shooting Challenge - Logic Help Appreciated!

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Old 10-03-2014, 01:05 AM
Grinder Man Grinder Man is offline
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Trouble Shooting Challenge - Logic Help Appreciated!

Greetings,
This is one of my first post but I have been reading and lurking since March when I acquired my problem.
I am at wits end and really need some sound troubleshooting help.
Here is what I have, what is happening, and my attempt to resolve…
Vehicle - 2005 Expy XLS, 91,000 miles, 4x4, 5.4 Miracle Motor (I really want to meet the guy that came up with that rear valve cover bolt – you rock dude, I added new tools I never dreamed of owning to my collection because of you!)
Issue – Mat the throttle at 65 mph like to get on the freeway or pass someone and the motor spools up from (according to the factory tach) 4,050 RPM to 4,250 RPM as you would expect. From 4,250 RPM to 4,500 RPM the motor goes flat like it is governed, not fueling correctly, etc. If you keep it matted, it usually climbs on out normally at 4,500 RPM to 5,000 RPM where the shift point is. Below 4,250 RPM it runs fantastic, spools up normally, decent torque, drive aggressively and it sucks fuel just as you would expect it to do. As a side note – if you take off from a dead stop and mat the throttle and keep it there, it runs up without lag 98% of the time. I don’t understand why it is better from a standing start than a moving to pass but it seems to matter.
It Throws No Codes, No Check Engine Light Comes On.
What I Have Replaced/Repaired
When I got it there were three bad coils and it sounded like a freaking Cummins 12 Valve – Noisy! (Yep, I know, I should have kept moving right past it but the orphan called my name and wanted a good home)…
Three Coils
Eight Spark Plugs (Two Day Berryman Chem-Tool Soak and Very Slow Removal – Back and Forth – None Busted!) – Replaced With One Piece Champions
Both Cam Phasers
Both VCT’s
Mass Air Flow Sensor
Throttle Position Sensor
Fuel Pump Driver Module (Hummer Pig Hole Ate In It)
Fuel Pressure / Fuel Temperature Sensor
In Tank Fuel Pump (Carter Fuel Pump Assembly)
All Eight Fuel Injectors
Changed All Filters (Oil, Fuel & Air) To Motorcraft The Day I Brought It Home
Running Royal Purple Synthetic Oil

The folks at the parts store love my new to me purchase!
I have swapped the Cam Position Sensors From Side To Side – No Effect
I assume The Crank Position Sensor Is OK As It Runs and Runs Fine Below 4,250 RPM
I assume The Vehicle Speed Sensor Is OK as the Speed O Meter Works As Advertised
I do have an Auto X-Ray Hand Held OBDII scanner and an ELM 327 Interface with OBDII Fusion on the I-Wad.
It Does Not Red Flag Any Sensors, Fuel Pressure is 39-42 PSI Which Shows Within Spec. Again, it throws no codes.

It was suggested that it might have a clogged catalytic converter, past experience is that will throw a code and blow out most every gasket or blow out exhaust at the pipe joints ahead of the converter. So far that isn’t happening and the exhaust coming out the pipe is pretty vigorous.
I like the truck for the most part and I REALLY don’t want to carry it to the crusher but it will bring more as scrap than what I paid for it and it is violating my patience as I cannot figure out what the CAUSE of the issue is. This has become my primary transportation and it has to work correctly as a daily driver.
I would love to hear from a Ford Tech that has seen this issue before and can lead me down a logic trail – I cannot be the only person on the face of the earth that this has / is happening to. Any suggestion of “change the motor” would honestly make about as much sense as cutting your finger off to alleviate a blood blister on the tip of it.
Thanks in advance for any information to help diagnose the cause so I can set out to repair this behemoth would be welcomed and appreciated.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:57 PM
alloro alloro is offline
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Your new fuel pump isn't supplying enough fuel for the higher demand at the higher RPMs, the fuel injectors are dirty, or the fuel pressure regulator is sticking. In any case it would seem to be a lack of fuel supply issue.
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Old 10-03-2014, 01:57 PM
pdqford pdqford is offline
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Is that fuel pressure of 39-42 PSI at idle or when its going flat?

Where are your fuel trims when it goes flat?
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:17 PM
Grinder Man Grinder Man is offline
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alloro, I replaced the fuel pump & sock, fuel filter, fuel pressure / temperature sensor, FPDM and all eight injectors at the same time. I completely emptied the tank, stuffed a rolls worth of lint free paper shop towels in it to completely dry the tank while I had it down and to make sure there was no dirt or moisture in it. While I had the lines open and the injectors out, I blew the lines with 50 PSI of air to make sure there was no moisture or dirt and then I began from the injector rails and back flushed the system with Chem Tool and let it air dry for about an hour. There was no debris or other crap from in the lines and this kind of surprised me. I don't disagree that this acts like a supply issue but short of replacing the EVAP stuff, it pretty much has about $1,000.00 worth of new fuel system.
pdq ford, I will have to hook the ELM 327 reader & I-Pad back up and go drive it, I want to say the 41 PSI was at 4,900 RPM and the 39 PSI was at idle. I am open to an economical data log software that will read off the PCM to a laptop if you have any suggestions - the OBD Fusion is more of a snap shot that data log. (I would prefer something windows based)
All Said, I totally agree that fuel pressure could be pulling back but what sensors are involved with pulling the trim back at that specific 250 RPM range. The other strange thing is that it does not do this in first gear (run up from a stop) only in 2nd gear.
I appreciate and Thank You both for the help and I will get the PSI and look at the trims this evening or tomorrow and let you know back.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:41 PM
alloro alloro is offline
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alloro, I replaced the fuel pump
Yes I saw that which is why I was sure to say your NEW fuel pump...
New parts are not always good parts and the pump might deliver enough fuel under lighter conditions, just not heavy conditions. I look forward to seeing what the PSI and fuel trims read.

I see you didn't list new O2 sensors, so where those changed at any point during this issue?
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:22 AM
Grinder Man Grinder Man is offline
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alloro, the problem was occurred with the old fuel pump which was the OEM / Factory installed unit. I read where Ford had some real issues with the Motorcraft / OEM unit that surfaced around '07 - '12 and there was a problem with product delivery (national back order) I visited with the guy at the local parts store and we looked up specs between the OEM and the Carter I replaced the factory unit with, the Carter exceeded the GPM output of the OEM. Since this is a variable voltage unit that regulates voltage at ground through the Fuel Pump Driver Module, I'm thinking there could be an issue with the signal received by the Fuel Pump Driver Module since it is intermittent, and it occurs in a specific gear and in a specific 250 RPM range. As far as the O2 sensors, nope haven't replaced any of those and at this point I really would rather invest in some better software that will help me diagnose the issue rather than keep throwing money at parts that don't eleminate the issue, not saying it couldn't be one of the O2 sensors but I want to make sure before I "invest" in anymore parts. If you or anyone on the board has a suggestion for some reasonably priced ($200.00 - $300.00) windows 7 based software that will read realtime and offer data logging without having to to take a corespondance course in button combination pushing that could help track this down. I'm also thinking that if one Ford does this, so do many others, in all the Fords I have owned, rare is it that they develop a rare problem (beautiful side effect of mass production!).
I will try to get the fuel pressure and fuel trims this afternoon while "in situation".
Thanks again for the response, keeping this thing from the crusher and maintaining my sanity it the goal here.
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:36 PM
alloro alloro is offline
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If you or anyone on the board has a suggestion for some reasonably priced ($200.00 - $300.00) windows 7 based software that will read realtime and offer data logging without having to to take a corespondance course in button combination pushing that could help track this down.
Which Auto X-Ray model do you have? I have the Auto X-Ray 6000 and it reads live data as well as interfaces with my computer to chart what it has tracked.

AutoXray 6000 Specs.
I think I paid $289 for it on sale several years ago. There is much better equipment out there if you want to spend thousands, but for under $300 I think this is one of the best scanners out there.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:56 PM
Grinder Man Grinder Man is offline
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alloro - Thanks! Mine is the Code Scout 2500 that I have had for a looong time. I will look into the link you sent. Money spent on diagnostic equipment reduces money wasted on not needed parts. I had a chance to play around with OBDII Fusion a little and I think I can bring some things into real time that will help. I am hoping to get my office work finished in a bit so I can go make a bonsai pass and see if I can get some info.
Appreciate the help!
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:04 AM
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Eight Spark Plugs (Two Day Berryman Chem-Tool Soak and Very Slow Removal – Back and Forth – None Busted!) – Replaced With One Piece Champions
I would start there and put Motorcraft plugs in. You could have a high RPM misfire and that would not set a code because the misfire monitor is only active below 2500 RPM. I have driven a few trucks that acted they way you describe and plugs fixed it.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:01 PM
alloro alloro is offline
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You could have a high RPM misfire and that would not set a code because the misfire monitor is only active below 2500 RPM.
Of course the live data feature of the Auto-X-Ray 6000 would allow you to see the misfires per cylinder in near real time. I thought I'd point that out just in case a certain someone needs an additional excuse to fund a new piece of equipment!
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:27 PM
Grinder Man Grinder Man is offline
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70f100longbed & alloro, it was missing and throwing codes before I changed the plugs and the #3, #4, & #6 coil packs, changed plugs at the same time so yes, very well could the champion plus are the issue but I'm going to get the code reader alloro suggested first as it isn't missing, it's just like it runs out of fuel. Even though I bought the Lilse tool BEFORE I started to change the plugs and by taking my time (or sheer luck) I didn't need it. I suppose it could be the champion plugs carry more resistance that causes spark scatter at that one particular 250 RPM range or even creates computer interference causing the issue but I stll lean toward a fueling issue and more so after this morning...
This is the first morning since I've owned this behemoth that the temperature has been below 65 degrees that I have driven the truck. On the way to my destination this morning it ran like it probably did new, spooled from idle to 5k just as smooth and as lineal as you would expect.
Here is another thing, the outside temperature reading on the instrument panel has always been 20-100+ degrees off. I noticed this early on and I replaced what I thought was the sensor, it made no difference and I really never chased it any farther but on a Houston summer day when it was say 98 degrees out, it might read -40 degrees or it could read 137 degrees (these are actual temps I have seen it display on a 98 degree day) this is the range I have seen and NEVER once has it matched what the real temp is, I can understand a few degrees variance BUT... I am wondering if maybe it is reading ambient air temperature all wrong and that throws off the read up when it is closed loop? I have not seen an air charge temp sensor for this thing so I presume this is a function of the mass air flow sensor?
Any way I'll post the part number and description of what I replaced.
This morning though, the outside temp on the instrument cluster said the same 56 degrees that the bank clock said and agreed with what the guy in the radio said when I got to my destination.
Also, I was able to capture a data log yesterday, I'm going to look at it this evening and see if anything red lights because it was "dead dawging" big time yesterday.
thank you again for the feedback, it is much, much appreciated.
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:29 PM
pdqford pdqford is offline
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it's just like it runs out of fuel.
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I was able to capture a data log yesterday,
The suspense is killing me! What was the fuel pressure and the fuel trims while it was *******?
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:37 PM
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I like alloro's idea of checking the post cat O2 sensors. I've had a cat plug up on me years ago and there was no way I could determine if it was bad because of exhaust pressures.
It started to Slowly stumble, much the way you discuss, especially in mid to upper rpm range.
It got worse so slowly, it was hard to detect the loss of power.

Btw, your detail of changes/improvements was great. Something many should review before starting a thread, asking for help.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:35 PM
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... I am wondering if maybe it is reading ambient air temperature all wrong and that throws off the read up when it is closed loop?
The PCM uses the IAT and the ECT to determine open loop fueling tables, and uses the upstream O2 sensors for closed loop fueling.

Again, your scan tool should be able to display what the PCM *thinks* those temps are?

The suspense is killing me! What was the fuel pressure and the fuel trims while it was *******?
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:35 AM
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The PCM uses the IAT and the ECT to determine open loop fueling tables, and uses the upstream O2 sensors for closed loop fueling.
Him,
I think you caught all of us in our tracks, trying read and re-read your analysis.

You stepped up the process...Big Time.
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