Injector Nozzle % Question
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
...I was referring to the extra money he had to spend (not expected) due the extra HP. Most the traction/ladder bars. The smaller nozzles would be less likely cause the need for these. Also if I had nozzles that big I would want to step up to a larger turbo to be able to support them.
I was saying I would not want 100% nozzles because they would cause me to spend even more money on the truck. I know that he is happy with the injectors and your tuning.
I was saying I would not want 100% nozzles because they would cause me to spend even more money on the truck. I know that he is happy with the injectors and your tuning.
Now with all of that spending behind me... I'm real happy with what Stinky can do if I so choose. I've been reading up on standard EGTs while driving 65MPH on the flat, I've got a lot of practice looking at the EGT gauge and AE/Torque data, and I've had multiple tunes on two tuning platforms. The 100% nozzles (with plenty of air) give me a cold exhaust. Winter numbers: 200 - 300 degrees F while idling, 525 - 575 degrees at 65 MPH on the flat, and 1200 degrees is about all I can do in permagrin mode. That last number is not towing, so I can't yet know what heat soak will do to me. I can't stay in the throttle long enough to see what a long burn will do - the truck goes too fast too soon.
Nozzles: 160/0 gives you cooler EGTs than stockers by default (easier to get the fuel in quicker). Flash a lit match under your hand, then take that lit match and hold it under your hand a while longer. That's the difference between single-shot and split-shot injectors - the singles are quicker. Even with that, the 160/0 is for trucks needing more torque, not high-RPM performance. In order to keep the power up through the RPM range, the nozzles need to be bigger.
The 30% nozzle is an "augered out" (slang, not a technical term) stock nozzle. This gives you slightly better high-RPM performance, but the stick still can't drain completely on race day. I have been told this one is easy to tune for, and it makes sense when I think it through.
The 80% nozzle is a whole different nozzle from the manufacturer. With this nozzle, you just crossed a line. You can get all the fuel out of the stick at high revs, but this is entering the Buck$Zooka live-fire range. Your cold starts will no longer be smoke-free, the axle-wrap fenceline is here, your transmission had better be up for this, and remote tuning won't likely give you the street manners you're accustomed to.
The 100% nozzle is an augered-out 80% nozzle. These can give some really low EGTs (with more air). They are slightly quicker than the 80%, and they can truly drain at redline on our truck. This was the Holy Grail for so many people - use all the fuel in the stick when racing with this size. I didn't get 100% for racing, I got 100% for the cold EGTs when towing my next boat in the summer... and for the room they have during the injection cycle.
To explain that better: As we drive along, we have so many milliseconds of time to get the fuel into the cylinder and burned before the piston pulls away from the fire. The higher the RPM, the fewer milliseconds we have. At lower RPM, the window to inject fuel is quite wide... and this is where the tuner has options when the nozzle is big enough. A tow tune can be more of a tow tune here... but more oomph in the low end can make more heat and your cylinder pressure can get excessive - if the tuner isn't careful. I've seen this happen.
If you go with the 80% or the 100% nozzles in search of lower EGTs, you can always dial down the power to avoid axle-angling, driveline deforming, and transmission torture - but you can't easily avoid the smoky cold starts and the need for live tuning.
The main problem with going for a stick-up is the stock air system was matched to the stock injectors without tuning... and these sticks (with tuning) move way past that. To fully use what the IH 160s can deliver, you really want more air - in and out. Yes... you can "get by" without air mods, or you can have the sticks detuned to stock power. To really fly, that dragon's gunna need air under the wings.
Air, air, and more air has been my big effort since the new sticks arrived... and it really helped. The 38R is not the most powerful puffer in the paddock, but it gets it done with a breathing cold-air intake and a 4" exhaust. After all I've learned from my mistakes and successes, if I had to choose only one this year and the other one next year - I'd choose air before fuel. Here's stock sticks, stock tune, and a stock turbo with bigger hardware before and after the GTP38:
And here's the 160/100 at play with an even bigger intake and a 38R:
There are those out there with 250/200s and 450/400s that may chuckle at my grand descriptions of the added power from a lowly 160cc injector... but properly applied, these sticks don't mess around.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,856
Likes: 52
From: Sacramento Delta, CA
I agree.
True he may not have the depth of knowledge in any one area which other longtime members or diesel professionals on this forum may have, but undeniably through trial and error and superior intellect and honesty to share his mistakes as well as his successes, it has all come together for Rich.
And he is explaining how the various components of the system work together in a way which even I can understand. No doubt he is helping others too.
I just repped Rich. I suggested that he can now change his avatar caption from "I'm a cautionary tale" to "guru in training..."
(Let's encourage him to keep posting!)
True he may not have the depth of knowledge in any one area which other longtime members or diesel professionals on this forum may have, but undeniably through trial and error and superior intellect and honesty to share his mistakes as well as his successes, it has all come together for Rich.
And he is explaining how the various components of the system work together in a way which even I can understand. No doubt he is helping others too.
I just repped Rich. I suggested that he can now change his avatar caption from "I'm a cautionary tale" to "guru in training..."
(Let's encourage him to keep posting!)
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
Likes: 891
From: north of Minneapolis, MN
The question is this...are both Jason's experience out of ordinary? And some other issue needs addressed to get back to the top of the Bell Curve?
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
There are so many things that can cause high EGTs, the stick by itself is not the "easy button". Tuning, the air system, and fixing exhaust/boost leaks are additional (and necessary) components to the easy button.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
Likes: 891
From: north of Minneapolis, MN
I'm sorry I have to be the one to break this to you, but that second number after the hash is percent above stock nozzle (in terms of flow). A "/0" is stock, and a "/100" can deliver twice the injector's available fuel with the exact same ICP/FIPW as a "/0".
There are so many things that can cause high EGTs, that the stick by itself is not the "easy button".
There are so many things that can cause high EGTs, that the stick by itself is not the "easy button".
The 175/146 injectors are a terrific upgrade for those 1999-2003, 7.3L owners looking for efficiency, as well as a modest power increase. The 175 single shot injectors retain the OEM ("146"nozzle), use NO more high pressure oil than stock AD split shot injectors, yet flow 25+cc's more fuel.
The 146
Nozzle is what swamps refers to as a stock nozzle. Based off measurements of the 7 holes in the nozzle.
Nozzle is what swamps refers to as a stock nozzle. Based off measurements of the 7 holes in the nozzle.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Tried to rep you, but I have to spread 'em around.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
Likes: 891
From: north of Minneapolis, MN
A little industry wide standardization would go a long way to help people make decisions. 
Thanks for "rep"...my one little Chiclet is lonesome.
Thanks for "rep"...my one little Chiclet is lonesome.
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Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
Likes: 891
From: north of Minneapolis, MN
Rich...in the things you write, one of the things I've paid attention to is cc's/nozzle/PW.
If a 160 with a stock nozzle can't be emptied in x amount of PW how does having 25 more ccs get emptied with a stock nozzle?
If a 160 with a stock nozzle can't be emptied in x amount of PW how does having 25 more ccs get emptied with a stock nozzle?
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
Likes: 891
From: north of Minneapolis, MN
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 9
From: Wellington, Co
Ten pages here, 175/146 or 160/30's? on how nozzle size effects EGT and tuning.
Looks like I have more reading to do.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Thread Starter
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Junior User
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: Mansfield Center, CT
Thanks for all the info. Great Stuff!! Who was the OEM for our injectors? Was it Alliant? I notice several vendors selling new injectors, wonder if they all come from the same manufacturer?
Jim
Jim
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Apr 15, 2013 08:38 PM