New Diesel Owner Question
#1
12-13-2013, 03:15 AM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Diesel Owner Question
I recently purchased a 2008 F250 with a 6.4. It was first Diesel I have ever owned or even drove. I had it going on a month and it started acting strange with a major lack of power and sounds like turbo doesnt kick in. I have read a bit about the "regen" and not sure if that is what happens or if the turbo is going out.I have a wrench on dash and drive to clean exhaust and also engine power reduced.They seemed to come on around the same time. Any info on how to test or check this out would be helpful. Thx in advance.
#3
12-13-2013, 06:27 AM
#4
12-13-2013, 06:54 AM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, Thanks for the welcome. I read several threads in yalls forum and they were extremely helpful in my descision to purchase this truck and very informative. I guess I was used to racing forums where no one shares information but knows everything. I am going to pull codes this morning. The truck was serviced before I purchased it according to agent. I did see the oil change ticket, but that was all I saw on ticket. The truck does have 172,000 miles, but it ran great for the test drive (ofcourse).
#5
12-13-2013, 10:36 PM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#6
12-13-2013, 10:44 PM
To remove the DPF on the truck will require a tuner. Can't just yank it off with stock programming. Without knowing what each CEL is off the top of my head you posted, removing the DPF will eliminate problems caused by the regen process.
#7
12-14-2013, 07:10 AM
Google is a great way to find anything you want. Below are links to the codes you posted. Looks like the DPF is bad. Good time to put a Spartan or Mini Maxx on it with a DPF/CAT delete.
P246c Ford Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction Forced Limited Power OBDII Engine Light Trouble Code | Engine-Codes.com
http://engine-codes.com/p2463_ford.html
http://engine-codes.com/p2452_ford.html
P246c Ford Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction Forced Limited Power OBDII Engine Light Trouble Code | Engine-Codes.com
http://engine-codes.com/p2463_ford.html
http://engine-codes.com/p2452_ford.html
Trending Topics
#8
12-14-2013, 08:13 AM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#9
12-14-2013, 08:16 AM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the bullydog downloader. Would that have the right info, or do I need a shop to install?
#10
12-14-2013, 09:16 AM
Cargo Master
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: missouri
Posts: 2,283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#11
12-14-2013, 09:44 AM
I don't recommend removing the emissions controls i.e. DPF, firs because it's illegal and second because it really doesn't solve anything generally. People love to blame the DPF for all ills on these new highly complex engines, but more often than not removing the DPF may mask an unrelated problem until it becomes worse.
The primary issue with the DPF system is fuel dilution of the oil and I have found that is mostly due to interrupted regen cycles which can be avoided if you monitor the system. My entirely stock '09 F350 with 5k oil changes and ~90k on the truck is generally <0.5% fuel dilution, occasionally 1% if I've had to interrupt a regen cycle during the oil period.
Most issues with the 6.4 or really any of the new generation emissions controlled diesels stem from not understanding the system and it's needs, and particularly from inadequate maintenance. Below are my standard recommendations for the 6.4:
The 6.4 does not typically "self destruct", in many cases it is aided in destructing by operator who do not understand the requirements of the new emissions controlled diesels and use them for the wrong type of service, neglect maintenance, etc. Properly operated and maintained the 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels do just fine.
Now if you are looking at a used one, you have to be concerned about it's useage and maintenance prior to your purchase. Unlike pre-emissions diesels the post-emissions diesels can go bad very quickly if they are neglected or are used for all short trips.
The problem with assessing a used post-emissions diesel is that much of what you want to inspect is not readily visible. On the 6.4 you would ideally want to inspect the following:
- Lower HFCM fuel filter and housing for signs of gunk buildup, and to ensure the filters have been changed.
- Upper fuel filter, looking in the bottom of the housing for signs of rust spots or metal flakes both of which can mean expensive fuel system repairs.
- The water pump back housing for signs of cavitation damage.
- Coolant nitrite test to see if the coolant has been maintained properly.
- Used oil analysis on a sample with ~5k miles on it.
- Check for signs of leaks at the radiator hose connections and the radiator itself.
Since a used vehicle at a dealer has probably recieved a basic service with new oil and filters, some of the information you want will not be available at all.
Clearly the water pump housing can not be inspected in any reasonable fashion. The lower HFCM filter and housing can't be inspected without draining a quart plus of fuel and making a mess so it's not easily inspected.
The upper fuel filter can be inspected fairly easily with a flashlight, wrench and a container to rest the filter in when removed. This is one inspection you should absolutely do since a high pressure fuel pump and injectors is a good $8k repair.
The coolant nitrite test is another quick and easy test you can do, clip a test strip on the end of a long hemostat and just dunk it in the coolant degas tank, wait the 45 seconds and compare the color chart. Most dealers probably won't change the coolant on a used truck so it your nitrite test shows under 300ppm nitrite, reject the truck for neglected maintenance.
My standard maintenance recommendations for the 6.4:
If you have not owned one of the newer emissions controlled diesels previously (any brand), be aware that they are far more dependent on proper maintenance than earlier diesels.
Key 6.4 maintenance items:
* Oil changes every 5,000 miles, with quality oil (synthetic recommended), used oil analysis (Blackstone) for every change. Use only Motorcraft oil filters or the Racor (OEM) equivalent.
* Fuel filter changes every 10,000 miles. Use only Motorcraft FD4617 or the Racor (OEM) equivalent filters.
* Coolant nitrite testing at least every 15,000 miles. I recommend every 5,000 miles at the same time you do the oil change for simplicity, the test strips are inexpensive. Do not be confused by the test directions warning not to sample from an overflow tank, the 6.4 does not have an overflow tank it has a degas bottle. The degas bottle is part of the coolant loop with constant circulation so it is a valid testing point. I do not bother "taking a sample", I simply clip the test strip on the end of a long hemostat and dunk it in the degas bottle to test. If the test is below 800ppm and above 300ppm add two bottles of VC-8 additive. If below 300ppm the entire coolant system must be flushed with VC-9 cleaner, rinsed well and refilled with new coolant.
* Cooling system flush with VC-9 and refill with Ford Gold coolant every 60,000 miles, sooner if you have neglected testing and the nitrite is under 300ppm.
* Use a quality fuel conditioner such as the Ford PM-22a/23a conditioners at every fueling. They add lubricity to the fuel, something that ULSD is lacking in which helps protect the high pressure (up to 26,000 PSI) fuel pump. They also help to reduce soot production which results in less frequent DPF regens and less fuel dilution in the engine oil.
* Drain the HFCM water separator monthly. The fuel drained can be poured back into the tank carefully leaving behind any water at the bottom of the collection jar (normally very little). If the water separator drain does not flow well or at all, it may be clogged with either parafin blobs or with bacterial growth. In either case at a minimum the drain valve cover needs to be removed and the clog cleared. If the clog is significant the HFCM cover needs to be removed for full cleaning. If the clog is white and waxy it's parafin and not a significant issue. If the clog is brown or similar and more slimy it is bacterial growth and the fuel tank should be "shocked" with a biocide such as Power Service Bio-Kleen which should not be confused with their Diesel-Kleen.
* The truck should not be used for all short trips and stop and go traffic. The 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels need regular longer periods at highway speeds to allow proper DPF regeneration and to get to proper operating temperature to help reduce fuel contamination in the engine oil.
* The latest PCM flash (11B23) does not provide continuous indication of when a DPF regen is taking place, it does however add much improved engine monitoring for developing issues. Over time you will get to recognize the subtle changes, but I recommend adding something like the ScanGauge II which will allow you to monitor the DPF temperature which is a clear indication that a regen is in progress when over ~600F.
* Avoid shutting the truck down with a regen in progress. If you have to, run the engine at high idle for a few minutes in park before shutting down to allow the turbos to cool down to normal temperatures before shutdown. If you are interrupting the regens you will see it in your Blackstone report, otherwise you should see very little fuel dilution, <1%.
You should also absolutely get the Ford ESP extended warranty, any repairs to the 6.4 are expensive and a single big repair can easily cover the cost of the ESP warranty. The coolant nitrite testing that many people overlook *is* in the owner's manual diesel supplement, so if you neglect it Ford can deny warranty coverage for resulting damage.
Other Super Duty maintenance items:
* Batteries - The batteries in these trucks are not the maintanence free / unmaintainable type, pop the caps to check and top up with distilled water periodically.
* Change transfer case fluid every 60,000 miles.
* Change rear differential fluid every 50,000 miles on DANA axles (F350 DRW and up).
* Change transmission fluid and filter every 60,000 miles on Torqshift transmissions (100k on manual transmissions). If you have the early Torqshift with the external filter the interval is much shorter.
Resources:
Coolant test strips - Buy the 4pk, not the bottle of 50, the strips have expiration dates and you'll only need <10 per year. Most dealer parts counters should have the test strips, NAPA has them, or order direct from Acustrip.
Ford Rotunda 328-2050
Used oil testing - Blackstone Labs, get the pre-paid 6pk of test kits to save a few bucks. You don't need the TBN option:
Order Now
Ford ESP extended warrantys - You can buy them online from real dealers, or use the online price from a real dealer to negotiate a better price from your local dealer. You absolutely want the ESP, while the 6.4 is not problematic as some claim as long as you maintain it properly, nearly any repair is big $ and one good one will cover the ESP cost:
Ford Extended Warranty | Genuine Ford ESP | Discounted Pricing
DPF, oil, coolant temp monitoring - ScangaugeII, you will need to program the X-gauge commands for the 6.4:
ScanGauge - Trip Computer + Digitial Gauges + ScanTools
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Specific : Linear Logic : Home of the ScanGauge
The primary issue with the DPF system is fuel dilution of the oil and I have found that is mostly due to interrupted regen cycles which can be avoided if you monitor the system. My entirely stock '09 F350 with 5k oil changes and ~90k on the truck is generally <0.5% fuel dilution, occasionally 1% if I've had to interrupt a regen cycle during the oil period.
Most issues with the 6.4 or really any of the new generation emissions controlled diesels stem from not understanding the system and it's needs, and particularly from inadequate maintenance. Below are my standard recommendations for the 6.4:
The 6.4 does not typically "self destruct", in many cases it is aided in destructing by operator who do not understand the requirements of the new emissions controlled diesels and use them for the wrong type of service, neglect maintenance, etc. Properly operated and maintained the 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels do just fine.
Now if you are looking at a used one, you have to be concerned about it's useage and maintenance prior to your purchase. Unlike pre-emissions diesels the post-emissions diesels can go bad very quickly if they are neglected or are used for all short trips.
The problem with assessing a used post-emissions diesel is that much of what you want to inspect is not readily visible. On the 6.4 you would ideally want to inspect the following:
- Lower HFCM fuel filter and housing for signs of gunk buildup, and to ensure the filters have been changed.
- Upper fuel filter, looking in the bottom of the housing for signs of rust spots or metal flakes both of which can mean expensive fuel system repairs.
- The water pump back housing for signs of cavitation damage.
- Coolant nitrite test to see if the coolant has been maintained properly.
- Used oil analysis on a sample with ~5k miles on it.
- Check for signs of leaks at the radiator hose connections and the radiator itself.
Since a used vehicle at a dealer has probably recieved a basic service with new oil and filters, some of the information you want will not be available at all.
Clearly the water pump housing can not be inspected in any reasonable fashion. The lower HFCM filter and housing can't be inspected without draining a quart plus of fuel and making a mess so it's not easily inspected.
The upper fuel filter can be inspected fairly easily with a flashlight, wrench and a container to rest the filter in when removed. This is one inspection you should absolutely do since a high pressure fuel pump and injectors is a good $8k repair.
The coolant nitrite test is another quick and easy test you can do, clip a test strip on the end of a long hemostat and just dunk it in the coolant degas tank, wait the 45 seconds and compare the color chart. Most dealers probably won't change the coolant on a used truck so it your nitrite test shows under 300ppm nitrite, reject the truck for neglected maintenance.
My standard maintenance recommendations for the 6.4:
If you have not owned one of the newer emissions controlled diesels previously (any brand), be aware that they are far more dependent on proper maintenance than earlier diesels.
Key 6.4 maintenance items:
* Oil changes every 5,000 miles, with quality oil (synthetic recommended), used oil analysis (Blackstone) for every change. Use only Motorcraft oil filters or the Racor (OEM) equivalent.
* Fuel filter changes every 10,000 miles. Use only Motorcraft FD4617 or the Racor (OEM) equivalent filters.
* Coolant nitrite testing at least every 15,000 miles. I recommend every 5,000 miles at the same time you do the oil change for simplicity, the test strips are inexpensive. Do not be confused by the test directions warning not to sample from an overflow tank, the 6.4 does not have an overflow tank it has a degas bottle. The degas bottle is part of the coolant loop with constant circulation so it is a valid testing point. I do not bother "taking a sample", I simply clip the test strip on the end of a long hemostat and dunk it in the degas bottle to test. If the test is below 800ppm and above 300ppm add two bottles of VC-8 additive. If below 300ppm the entire coolant system must be flushed with VC-9 cleaner, rinsed well and refilled with new coolant.
* Cooling system flush with VC-9 and refill with Ford Gold coolant every 60,000 miles, sooner if you have neglected testing and the nitrite is under 300ppm.
* Use a quality fuel conditioner such as the Ford PM-22a/23a conditioners at every fueling. They add lubricity to the fuel, something that ULSD is lacking in which helps protect the high pressure (up to 26,000 PSI) fuel pump. They also help to reduce soot production which results in less frequent DPF regens and less fuel dilution in the engine oil.
* Drain the HFCM water separator monthly. The fuel drained can be poured back into the tank carefully leaving behind any water at the bottom of the collection jar (normally very little). If the water separator drain does not flow well or at all, it may be clogged with either parafin blobs or with bacterial growth. In either case at a minimum the drain valve cover needs to be removed and the clog cleared. If the clog is significant the HFCM cover needs to be removed for full cleaning. If the clog is white and waxy it's parafin and not a significant issue. If the clog is brown or similar and more slimy it is bacterial growth and the fuel tank should be "shocked" with a biocide such as Power Service Bio-Kleen which should not be confused with their Diesel-Kleen.
* The truck should not be used for all short trips and stop and go traffic. The 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels need regular longer periods at highway speeds to allow proper DPF regeneration and to get to proper operating temperature to help reduce fuel contamination in the engine oil.
* The latest PCM flash (11B23) does not provide continuous indication of when a DPF regen is taking place, it does however add much improved engine monitoring for developing issues. Over time you will get to recognize the subtle changes, but I recommend adding something like the ScanGauge II which will allow you to monitor the DPF temperature which is a clear indication that a regen is in progress when over ~600F.
* Avoid shutting the truck down with a regen in progress. If you have to, run the engine at high idle for a few minutes in park before shutting down to allow the turbos to cool down to normal temperatures before shutdown. If you are interrupting the regens you will see it in your Blackstone report, otherwise you should see very little fuel dilution, <1%.
You should also absolutely get the Ford ESP extended warranty, any repairs to the 6.4 are expensive and a single big repair can easily cover the cost of the ESP warranty. The coolant nitrite testing that many people overlook *is* in the owner's manual diesel supplement, so if you neglect it Ford can deny warranty coverage for resulting damage.
Other Super Duty maintenance items:
* Batteries - The batteries in these trucks are not the maintanence free / unmaintainable type, pop the caps to check and top up with distilled water periodically.
* Change transfer case fluid every 60,000 miles.
* Change rear differential fluid every 50,000 miles on DANA axles (F350 DRW and up).
* Change transmission fluid and filter every 60,000 miles on Torqshift transmissions (100k on manual transmissions). If you have the early Torqshift with the external filter the interval is much shorter.
Resources:
Coolant test strips - Buy the 4pk, not the bottle of 50, the strips have expiration dates and you'll only need <10 per year. Most dealer parts counters should have the test strips, NAPA has them, or order direct from Acustrip.
Ford Rotunda 328-2050
Used oil testing - Blackstone Labs, get the pre-paid 6pk of test kits to save a few bucks. You don't need the TBN option:
Order Now
Ford ESP extended warrantys - You can buy them online from real dealers, or use the online price from a real dealer to negotiate a better price from your local dealer. You absolutely want the ESP, while the 6.4 is not problematic as some claim as long as you maintain it properly, nearly any repair is big $ and one good one will cover the ESP cost:
Ford Extended Warranty | Genuine Ford ESP | Discounted Pricing
DPF, oil, coolant temp monitoring - ScangaugeII, you will need to program the X-gauge commands for the 6.4:
ScanGauge - Trip Computer + Digitial Gauges + ScanTools
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Specific : Linear Logic : Home of the ScanGauge
#12
12-15-2013, 06:42 PM
Posting Guru
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This might help you. **Do not** drive the truck any more before you figure out what's going on. It seems the DPF is just about plugged up. :-(
Are you tuned? Some tuners disable regens and require the DPF to be removed.
P246C - Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction - Forced Limited Power
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the diesel particulate filter for a high restriction. The test fails during normal vehicle operation when the diesel particulate filter pressure is greater than a calibrated amount. The PCM illuminates the powertrain malfunction indicator (wrench), limits engine performance, and sets the DTC.
Possible Causes: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Diagnostic Aids: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter may be caused by extended engine idle operation after the DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message is displayed on the instrument cluster. Refer to the Owner's Literature for additional information on the instrument cluster DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message.
P2463 - Diesel Particulate Filter - Soot Accumulation
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the diesel particulate filter for a very high restriction. The test fails during normal vehicle operation when the diesel particulate filter pressure is greater than a maximum amount. The PCM immediately illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL), limits engine performance, and sets the DTC. This DTC may inhibit the diesel particulate filter regeneration.
Possible Causes: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Diagnostic Aids: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter may be caused by extended engine idle operation after the DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message is displayed on the instrument cluster. Refer to the Owner's Literature for additional information on the instrument cluster DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message.
Check for other DTCs.
P2452 - Diesel Particulate Filter Pressure Sensor A Circuit
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the rationality of the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor during idle and part load operating conditions. The test fails when the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor signal value at idle is less than 0.15 kPa (0.022 psi). The test also fails when the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor signal value at part load is less than a minimum value or greater than a maximum value. These minimum and maximum values are based on the volume of exhaust.
Possible Causes: Diesel particulate filter pressure sensor connecting hose is loose, cracked, or missing
Diesel particulate filter pressure sensor connecting hose port is cracked or broken
Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Damaged diesel particulate filter pressure sensor
Diagnostic Aids: Carry out a thorough inspection of the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor and connecting hose. If DTC P2463 is present along with DTC P2452, diagnose DTC P2463 first.
Are you tuned? Some tuners disable regens and require the DPF to be removed.
P246C - Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction - Forced Limited Power
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the diesel particulate filter for a high restriction. The test fails during normal vehicle operation when the diesel particulate filter pressure is greater than a calibrated amount. The PCM illuminates the powertrain malfunction indicator (wrench), limits engine performance, and sets the DTC.
Possible Causes: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Diagnostic Aids: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter may be caused by extended engine idle operation after the DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message is displayed on the instrument cluster. Refer to the Owner's Literature for additional information on the instrument cluster DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message.
P2463 - Diesel Particulate Filter - Soot Accumulation
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the diesel particulate filter for a very high restriction. The test fails during normal vehicle operation when the diesel particulate filter pressure is greater than a maximum amount. The PCM immediately illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL), limits engine performance, and sets the DTC. This DTC may inhibit the diesel particulate filter regeneration.
Possible Causes: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Diagnostic Aids: Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter may be caused by extended engine idle operation after the DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message is displayed on the instrument cluster. Refer to the Owner's Literature for additional information on the instrument cluster DRIVE TO CLEAN EXHAUST message.
Check for other DTCs.
P2452 - Diesel Particulate Filter Pressure Sensor A Circuit
Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the rationality of the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor during idle and part load operating conditions. The test fails when the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor signal value at idle is less than 0.15 kPa (0.022 psi). The test also fails when the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor signal value at part load is less than a minimum value or greater than a maximum value. These minimum and maximum values are based on the volume of exhaust.
Possible Causes: Diesel particulate filter pressure sensor connecting hose is loose, cracked, or missing
Diesel particulate filter pressure sensor connecting hose port is cracked or broken
Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter
Damaged diesel particulate filter pressure sensor
Diagnostic Aids: Carry out a thorough inspection of the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor and connecting hose. If DTC P2463 is present along with DTC P2452, diagnose DTC P2463 first.
#13
12-16-2013, 03:37 PM
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SanAntonio,Tx
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#14
12-16-2013, 03:40 PM
with more codes.
#15
12-16-2013, 04:05 PM
Posting Guru
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One simple thing to check is the condition of the DPF pressure sensor. There's also a 1" rubber hose that attaches it to the top of the CAT where the DPF is bolted on. I've read one instance where a guy had a leaking hose therefore giving bad readings.
I haven't tried it, but I think you can remove the DPF and run/idle it for a while, but you'll need to leave the sensors attached. Without the DPF, you might get codes thrown saying the DPF pressure reading is bogus since it expects a certain minimum pressure reading. If you do remove the DPF, blow some soot/ ash out...that will buy you some time before it completely plugs up.
Depending on when the last regen was you might start regening immediately, get more codes, and belch smoke since a forced regen will supposedly occur regardless if there hasn't been one in the last 650-some miles.
I haven't tried it, but I think you can remove the DPF and run/idle it for a while, but you'll need to leave the sensors attached. Without the DPF, you might get codes thrown saying the DPF pressure reading is bogus since it expects a certain minimum pressure reading. If you do remove the DPF, blow some soot/ ash out...that will buy you some time before it completely plugs up.
Depending on when the last regen was you might start regening immediately, get more codes, and belch smoke since a forced regen will supposedly occur regardless if there hasn't been one in the last 650-some miles.