S&B vs. AIS - With Photos
#31
My experience, going from a 6637 to an S&B, is that the S&B is a bit quieter. Much less of the intake 'whooshing' sounds. In my opinion, it does seem to resonate a bit, (hard plastics/lexan top), so it seems to make the turbo whine more evident.
#33
Well... I've driven it harsh and gentle. I can't get smoke out the tailpipe for nuthin' with my DD tune, not even a puff - but I always roll the throttle instead of slamming it.
I could try the race tune, but that's not going to happen soon. I just got this truck back together and things go wrong when I test the boundaries.
I could try the race tune, but that's not going to happen soon. I just got this truck back together and things go wrong when I test the boundaries.
#34
#35
I found the bark and the black-hole-suck-all-but-light-through-intake sound I've heard everybody talk about. Once the turbine pushes past the dreaded 2 PSI, all is well on that sound. This sucks... but it lets the turbo suck more.
If I just drive normal and pass with authority (not aggression), I'll never really hear more than the terrible two.
*EDIT* Noise being worked out later in thread.
If I just drive normal and pass with authority (not aggression), I'll never really hear more than the terrible two.
*EDIT* Noise being worked out later in thread.
#36
Join Date: Nov 2010
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AIS flows 775cfm @ 12" W, Tymar flows 450cfm @ 12" W.
Here are two posts other sites, regarding the AIS filtration:
"OK fellas, here's the deal. I spoke directly with Jordan Flagstad - I was the one he gave those flow numbers to. He is an engineer at Donaldson. Donaldson makes the big filter (B085011) that Dale Isley puts on his Tymar setup. Donaldson makes the AIS kit and the Power Core filter that goes into it.
Donaldson did the comparison flow testing. They tested the flow through their entire AIS kit as they sell it (or as Ford dealers sell it), and they tested their B085011 filter alone hooked up to the flow test equipment. And the flow through the Power Core filter installed in the AIS housing, plastic housing and all, showed 8.3" of restriction at 500 CFM flow. The flow through the B085011 filter alone, hooked directly up to the test equipment (ie. - open to airflow all the way around the filter) showed 10" of restriction at the same 500 CFM flow. This is how Jordan explained it to me, and this is why I am replacing my Tymar with the AIS. "
Donaldson did the comparison flow testing. They tested the flow through their entire AIS kit as they sell it (or as Ford dealers sell it), and they tested their B085011 filter alone hooked up to the flow test equipment. And the flow through the Power Core filter installed in the AIS housing, plastic housing and all, showed 8.3" of restriction at 500 CFM flow. The flow through the B085011 filter alone, hooked directly up to the test equipment (ie. - open to airflow all the way around the filter) showed 10" of restriction at the same 500 CFM flow. This is how Jordan explained it to me, and this is why I am replacing my Tymar with the AIS. "
It seems to me that the ability of an air filter to protect your engine should be the top criteria for selecting an air filter and the "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of an air filter is given by...
"Dirt Filtering Efficiency"={"Dirt Holding Capacity"}/{"Dirt Holding Capacity"+"Dirt Passed"}
...and if you multiply this result by 100 it gives the percentage of the dirt in the incoming air stream that's stopped by the air filter so that it doesn't enter your engine.
For an ISO-5011 test the measurement of "Dirt Holding Capacity" and "Dirt Passed" is done by establishing a 628 CFM airflow through an initially clean air filter and then introducing into the airflow stream a controlled amount of "standardized dust" at a controlled dust feed rate of 17.58 grams/min. The "standardized dust" meets an ISO-12103 standard which has a specified distribution of particle diameters ranging from less than 0.5 microns to 150 microns and the peak of the particle distribution curve is at a 60 micron particle diameter.
As the filter does its job of filtering out the dust that's been introduced into the airflow stream the filter becomes progressively more restricted and the suction is increased so as to maintain a constant 628 CFM airflow through an increasingly dirtier filter. When the inches H2O restriction increases to 10 inches H2O above the initial restriction for a clean filter at a 628 CFM airflow the test is terminated and the results are tabulated. The "Dirt Passed" is collected with a downstream sub-micron HEPA filter and then weighed and the "Dirt Holding Capacity" is determined by weighing the clean and dirty filter under identical conditions of ambient pressure, temperature, and relative humidity.
For the stock FA-1750 filter the "Dirt Filtering Efficiency"={542.0}/{1.31+542.0}=0.9976=99.76% but this means that 0.24% of the ingested dirt still passes through the filter and as the miles accumulate this adds up to a lot of dirt going into your engine especially if you drive in dusty conditions!
The Donaldson Power Core Ultra Web technology blue media used in the AIS FA-1757 element has a "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of 99.97% which means that only 0.03% of the ingested dirt passes through that filter and this means the stock FA-1750 filter passes a factor of x8 more dirt than the AIS FA-1757 does!
So what's the "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of a WIX 46637 or any of it's crossed-referenced "so-called" equivalents such as the Baldwin PA2818 or the Donaldson B085011? Well the only information I've been able to find is from the Donaldson website which states that "Donaldson’s DuraLite Air Cleaners" which includes the Donaldson B085011 are rated for... "Gas and diesel engines in light to medium dust conditions".
So the Donaldson B085011 filter doesn't seem to be a good choice for the dusty conditions that many trucks encounter! Also based on the price difference the WIX/NAPA 6637 versions of the Donaldson B085011 might not be of equal quality or perhaps by now they're just like most other commodities and all made at the same factory in China?
A dry paper element filters on a "go or no go" basis where dirt particles that are larger than the "openings" in the filter media are trapped while particles that are smaller than the openings can pass right through. For a treated or impregnated paper element with the same size "openings" in the filter media many of the smaller diameter particles stick to the surface and don't pass through the element resulting in improved "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of "invisible" particulate matter with very small micron diameters. Since the surface of the stock FA-1750 element has a kind of "waxy" feel and the 6637 seems to employ a plain dry paper element I doubt the 6637 filters any better than the stock element does and perhaps not even as well!
In case anyone's curious as to why a "628 CFM airflow" is used it's because the ISO-5011 test standard includes a formula for the required testing CFM that depends on engine displacement and on whether or not it has a turbo and for any 7.3L engine with a turbo a "628 CFM airflow" is required for the dirt filtration testing.
Some filter vendors have been known to test at a CFM that's lower than the ISO-5011 test standard CFM and since a larger percentage of dirt gets filtered out at a lower CFM this allows claims of higher "Dirt Filtering Efficiency"! Also some filter vendors test with "coarse dust" which only includes particles ranging in size from 5.5 microns to 176 microns as opposed to the ISO-5011 test standard which includes particle diameters ranging from less than 0.5 microns to 150 microns.
"Dirt Filtering Efficiency"={"Dirt Holding Capacity"}/{"Dirt Holding Capacity"+"Dirt Passed"}
...and if you multiply this result by 100 it gives the percentage of the dirt in the incoming air stream that's stopped by the air filter so that it doesn't enter your engine.
For an ISO-5011 test the measurement of "Dirt Holding Capacity" and "Dirt Passed" is done by establishing a 628 CFM airflow through an initially clean air filter and then introducing into the airflow stream a controlled amount of "standardized dust" at a controlled dust feed rate of 17.58 grams/min. The "standardized dust" meets an ISO-12103 standard which has a specified distribution of particle diameters ranging from less than 0.5 microns to 150 microns and the peak of the particle distribution curve is at a 60 micron particle diameter.
As the filter does its job of filtering out the dust that's been introduced into the airflow stream the filter becomes progressively more restricted and the suction is increased so as to maintain a constant 628 CFM airflow through an increasingly dirtier filter. When the inches H2O restriction increases to 10 inches H2O above the initial restriction for a clean filter at a 628 CFM airflow the test is terminated and the results are tabulated. The "Dirt Passed" is collected with a downstream sub-micron HEPA filter and then weighed and the "Dirt Holding Capacity" is determined by weighing the clean and dirty filter under identical conditions of ambient pressure, temperature, and relative humidity.
For the stock FA-1750 filter the "Dirt Filtering Efficiency"={542.0}/{1.31+542.0}=0.9976=99.76% but this means that 0.24% of the ingested dirt still passes through the filter and as the miles accumulate this adds up to a lot of dirt going into your engine especially if you drive in dusty conditions!
The Donaldson Power Core Ultra Web technology blue media used in the AIS FA-1757 element has a "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of 99.97% which means that only 0.03% of the ingested dirt passes through that filter and this means the stock FA-1750 filter passes a factor of x8 more dirt than the AIS FA-1757 does!
So what's the "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of a WIX 46637 or any of it's crossed-referenced "so-called" equivalents such as the Baldwin PA2818 or the Donaldson B085011? Well the only information I've been able to find is from the Donaldson website which states that "Donaldson’s DuraLite Air Cleaners" which includes the Donaldson B085011 are rated for... "Gas and diesel engines in light to medium dust conditions".
So the Donaldson B085011 filter doesn't seem to be a good choice for the dusty conditions that many trucks encounter! Also based on the price difference the WIX/NAPA 6637 versions of the Donaldson B085011 might not be of equal quality or perhaps by now they're just like most other commodities and all made at the same factory in China?
A dry paper element filters on a "go or no go" basis where dirt particles that are larger than the "openings" in the filter media are trapped while particles that are smaller than the openings can pass right through. For a treated or impregnated paper element with the same size "openings" in the filter media many of the smaller diameter particles stick to the surface and don't pass through the element resulting in improved "Dirt Filtering Efficiency" of "invisible" particulate matter with very small micron diameters. Since the surface of the stock FA-1750 element has a kind of "waxy" feel and the 6637 seems to employ a plain dry paper element I doubt the 6637 filters any better than the stock element does and perhaps not even as well!
In case anyone's curious as to why a "628 CFM airflow" is used it's because the ISO-5011 test standard includes a formula for the required testing CFM that depends on engine displacement and on whether or not it has a turbo and for any 7.3L engine with a turbo a "628 CFM airflow" is required for the dirt filtration testing.
Some filter vendors have been known to test at a CFM that's lower than the ISO-5011 test standard CFM and since a larger percentage of dirt gets filtered out at a lower CFM this allows claims of higher "Dirt Filtering Efficiency"! Also some filter vendors test with "coarse dust" which only includes particles ranging in size from 5.5 microns to 176 microns as opposed to the ISO-5011 test standard which includes particle diameters ranging from less than 0.5 microns to 150 microns.
#37
Man... you must have really scoured the net to find that one. I wish the numbers were in a PDF on the Donaldson site, so it can be used as an "official" reference. I can graph the data anyway, since we have a couple of numbers to play with.
I have run the S&B as well as the AIS, and I can say I literally see a difference in air flow... I haven't seen any smoke in the mirror since I switched to the S&B.
I have run the S&B as well as the AIS, and I can say I literally see a difference in air flow... I haven't seen any smoke in the mirror since I switched to the S&B.
#39
#40
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I had posted the same info here on FTE about 2 years ago, but the data came from another PSD site from around 2005 or so (maybe a year after the AIS retrofit came out). So YES...in some ways, probably very hard to find this data.
#41
https://dynamic.donaldson.com/webc/W...083&item=14043
Here's some CFM data published on Donaldsons website for the B085011. I can't find the same info for the AIS Powercore filter.
I will say, I made the switch from the B085011 to the AIS today, and I'm astonished with the difference. I wish I would've done it a long time ago. I did add the fender sleeve.
Here's some CFM data published on Donaldsons website for the B085011. I can't find the same info for the AIS Powercore filter.
I will say, I made the switch from the B085011 to the AIS today, and I'm astonished with the difference. I wish I would've done it a long time ago. I did add the fender sleeve.
#42
#43
#44
Why Tugly, HERE is the AIS Flow Data!!! And no, it does not flow like stock. Flows even better than a 6637 (aka "Tymar"). Below are quotes from something I posted a long while back, gleaned from information found elsewhere:
AIS flows 775cfm @ 12" W, Tymar flows 450cfm @ 12" W.
AIS flows 775cfm @ 12" W, Tymar flows 450cfm @ 12" W.
TheDieselStop.Com Forums: Ford Intake Upgrade - Do We Need This?
Glad that worked, there was a time during the Forum Wars you couldn't even mention The Diesel Stop on FTE let alone post a link to them. But that's another story.
I put mine on in October of 2004. Time flies.
#45
AIS - Stone-cold quiet. Nothing. Zip. I never heard the compressor side of my 38 or 38R until I switched to a different intake. It takes what the 38R and Stage IIs dish out... barely. I get a puff of soot and a contrail of haze, and the filter minder is pretty much parked on "Change me now, you cheap bass turd" - even when new.
S&B - It's loud with the 38R so far, but not like a 6637 with a stock turbo. I compare those two because I've heard those two. The S&B resonated at 2 PSI, but highway travel is pleasantly calm while it accompanies the engine, but doesn't raise above the din. It's a breather. Despite the theories of temperature - this is not my first season of driving Stinky in the cold with these sticks, turbo, and intake. I feel the bump in the butt, and the tail is always clear.
S&B sound: I found an issue under the hood that may have contributed to the "terrible two". I also tried a few modifications to the system, but I won't know the results of my efforts until tomorrow.