Here's a link to a game of Whack-A-Mole.

If you're going to use loctite on the injector holddown bolts, the bolts and holes not only need to be dry, but clean. Read the above link, we've all posted some good info in there. Use brake cleaner, run a tap through the holes, compressed air to blow everything out, and then finish the holes with isopropyl alcohol (IPA) and cotton swabs to get every bit of old oil and dirt out. The IPA is very similar to the primer that Loctite recommends for these type of applications, and will help promote adherence. Clean the bolts - even if new, they're coated with oil as a corrosion preservative. Get a loctite that's rated for high temps.

After final tightening, let it sit for a day for the loctite to cure, it takes time. Going through all the work to clean your injectors and change all those orings, just to have things loosen up, especially in these temps, well...

 

Thanks for posting that, I completely spaced off the cure time. I went back and edited the list.

So my woes are reference material for "Don't try this in your home".

 

I think your plan for re-torquing while / after idling is a great check to ensure everything is seated perfectly before letting the loctite cure. Not sure if the lengthy cure time is by design or not, but it does allow plenty of play time for making final adjustments.

I really don't know how much the idling affects the cure, or whether letting the head, and loctite, reach normal engine operating temps (if a long idle) affects the final cure either.

Your woes are the PSD Gospel According to Stinky

 

I'd view this pdf before I'd hot retorque a thread locked injector bolt.

Locktite 246 datasheet

 

I suspect two things: Metal heat expansion alters the torque, and heat alters the cure time. I don't think heating the thread locker to near 200 degrees when fresh hurts anything, and I wouldn't want to re-torque after the cure is done.

 

Rich, after reading about Cackle for some years and the different theories and fixes that guys have tried, I believe that you have hit on an overlooked cause of cackle--unmatched injectors. The HUEI process is by its very nature not precise. As you point out, flow tested injectors are more accurate. But what level of inaccuracy is ok out the factory door on new or reman sticks? Then put thousands of miles on the engine with dirty oil going through the injectors, it is a wonder that the 7.3's and 6.0's run at all. If the solenoid hangs just a little bit in either the closed position or open position, timing and amount of fuel injected can be affected. Then add in the very likely oil foaming causing lower hydraulic pressure and injection pressure at the injector itself, there is another hole in the dike.

It is no wonder that used motor oil is not used in transmissions--it is not designed to be a reliable hydraulic fluid! If foaming additives are part of the problem, even a bypass filter will not solve that problem. And then there is the black oil in the HPOP system, which may be a result of cooking or coking in the heated heads.It would sure be nice if one of the big injection players would figure this out and give us a report, so us little guys would know what to do. But I guess the big guys have mostly moved on to the common rail systems. Thanks again, Rich for your intelligent comments on so many different subjects. You force us all to think outside the box! Larry

 

Just to add some additional info to anti-foaming or foaming in Diesel oils.

There are three sequence test under ASTM D-892 test that an API certified oil must go through along with a high temp foam test ASTM D6082. If you can find the technical data sheet on the oil you use you just might find the results of these tests.

it's been almost 5 years since I've worked for Schaeffer's Oil so some of my knowledge is no longer in my short term memory. But I still have many of my resources lying around and I remember this being a very hot issue here and on PSN when folks were running dual HPOPs and high ICP programs (3,200+) and in the 6.0L.

Here is an example (an example - not a push for Schaeffer Oil).

Schaeffer's has always publicized there test results. If you look at page 4 on this PDF you can see the tests listed that I mentioned. I'll look up the minimum standard for diesel oils and I think I have the Motorcraft stuff still. But IIRC this is one of the reasons (foaming agent depletion) that Motorcraft recommended 3-5,000 mile OCI's.

Sorry I am 6 month late to this thread

http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/222-700-td.pdf

 

Good read Rich. Its what my son uses, in fact I bought it for him for his 6.0L and was also suppost to use it. I guess its time for me to see how it acts. You have know lobing in cold weather where you are? I know it gets colder there then here where we live in California.

 

Larry, thank you for that compliment! Having fallen victim to common-think in years past, I've learned that thinking far afield has led me to some good places... and I just want to bring some friends along.

My truck is running great, but there's one caveat: It's so quiet, that one cackler is more annoying than it would otherwise be. I'm a victim of my success.

 

Oh yeah, some of the 6.0L's sound rough if not plugged in. For me the first winter took some getting used to. - so I bought an Excursion!

 

Not sure what it sounded like prior to me owning it but my 6.0 is very quiet when first starting it. I am not sure why but it is quieter when I first start it and then it slowly gets a bit louder till it is at normal diesel sound levels.

 

Oil viscosity in HEUI injectors, timing changes a bit because the injection speeds up with thinner oil, tuning, etc....

 

Hey guys!

I may have just proven this theory of mine! We had a Chinook wind today, so I jumped on the warm weather - I dove under the Passenger side VC in search of cackle. I had a 1 1/2" shop vac hose and I was listening to each moving part by aiming at key parts. I tried everything I could to simulate a load like I was driving... pull ICP plug, run a KOER, run the warm-up tune - nothing obvious popped. I couldn't really nail anything down for sure, but #7 injector has been a suspect for a long time and it was a little noisier in the driveway.

So... I pulled it and swapped it for the 9th injector I have on the bench. This obviously introduces air in the oil and I knew I was going to have to drive it out before I knew if anything was going to quiet down. I started Stinky for a warm-up, and #1 injector started jack-hammering.

UH? Now I need to find out if I can make it stop.... Shortcut to the answer (after 1/2 hour of tinkering) - KOER test on AE did it. KOER jacks the ICP up to 2200 PSI at idle and blows the oil rail clear of remaining bubbles. If I'm right, this explains the intermittent nature of the injector cackle: A hard throttle would frequently introduce the cackle, and it would take a long time to clear. I couple this with the suspicion that my LPOP is weak and I have the potential for a "Eureka" moment.

Even with all that, I'm open to other theories from those who feel the desire to share (or that I've indulged in the new Washington herbal law). I should note that I have the FRx to purge the fuel lines of air and a Hutch mod that is confirmed to avoid air in fuel, but I rule nothing out... it's an imperfect world.

Thoughts?

 

I got nuttin"......but I think I'm coming your way sometime in the next month. Maybe I should bring a box of sticks along (160/30's) and we could swap them out in 5-10 minutes? Too effin' cold here for any work outside.

 

Bring it on... I got the VC popped, cylinder cleared, stick swapped, and engine running in an hour this last time (including the time to clean the hold-down bolt/hole and thread-lock). I'm so pathetic.