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My luck soots Stinky just fine... Brisk Buck$Zooka Blasts!

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My luck soots Stinky just fine... Brisk Buck$Zooka Blasts!

  #1  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:20 AM
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My luck soots Stinky just fine... Brisk Buck$Zooka Blasts!

If you pop the hood to be welcomed by this, you're having a bad day.










It's not oil or diesel. It's soot... as in exhaust gasses entering my coolant.
  • The water does not boil over, so it's not a lot of exhaust... just a tiny amount over the miles.
  • My coolant level is dropping very slowly, barely perceptable in a single run, but enough over time to know there's a problem.
  • When running, there is no AE method to check coolant temps, but coolant was checked with two different styles of hand-held temp sensors and it never exceeds oil temp.
  • White smoke at startup, but goes away when warm - with brand new GPs and wiring harnesses.
  • Effects low-power running, but not acceleration.
  • It started while messing with the injectors and I found 3 of them not quite tightened down (we torqued them during install).
  • Zero oil or sheen on the top of the bottle and no discoloration of the oil or water.
Working theories by many experts... of which I don't pretend to be:
  1. An injector cup worked it's way loose ever-so-slightly... it's happened more than once on other trucks. (annoying, but manageable)
  2. A small crack in a cup just below the injector O-ring seal for the fuel. (Same annoyance with the same fix)
  3. A blown head gasket. (bad)
  4. A cracked head. (uber-bad)
  5. Pinhole in cylinder sleeve (right up ther with cracked head).
Fingers crossed, parts on the way, time scheduled in 2000ca250's garage.
 
  #2  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:03 AM
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Da** Tug, your luck is almost as good as mine...Have you thought about sending oil to Blackstones to see if coolant is in the oil??
 
  #3  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:32 AM
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I've put more thought to handing my ammo clip to a good shop and waiting for a proper-running truck to pop out the door... or parking Stinky until Spring. If the cups don't fix this particular issue, one of those two (or both) options will ensue... and that would be a real punch to the chest/wallet.
 
  #4  
Old 11-27-2012, 11:37 AM
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I'm not sure it's time to panic just yet....most every one of our diesel trucks have some residue inside the degas bottle/tank. I am not sure if that is normal or not but might just be something that happens over time. Some trucks are worse then others, doesn't matter which brand or type either. The International tanks are solid black so you can't really see inside but if you stick your finger in the tank and rub around it will come out with some black chalky stuff. The 6.0 and newer tanks are molded with a black upper half...I bet Ford did that so people wouldn't freak out when they saw the residue in there.

Is it possible that your 'coolant loss' is simply due to the onset of winter? I think I'd have an oil sample taken first and see if there are any signs of water in the coolant. Around this time of year is when we start seeing threads about leaking oil cooler o-rings...
 
  #5  
Old 11-27-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Shake-N-Bake View Post
I'm not sure it's time to panic just yet....most every one of our diesel trucks have some residue inside the degas bottle/tank.
I'm with Greg...slow down and breath deep. How about adding a UV dye to the coolant to see where it might show up? Are you running a coolant filter on your truck Rich?
 
  #6  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:18 PM
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Thats what happens when you have a new, clear degas bottle! I can't see my fluid at all (just kiddin). Hope you get this one figured out without too many shots from the ol buckszooka.
 
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:01 PM
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I'm inclined to agree with Greg. White smoke at start up when cold is just something that happens with bigger nozzle injectors so pull that off the list. No bubbles? Doubt it's a leak. My gut says its normal. I haven't seen a truck that doesn't gave some grime under the hood or cap.

That being said. Id monitor the EOT vs coolant temp. I'm more inclined to say oil cooler beginning to fail then cups. Again the miss you're hearing sounds a lot like the 80e death rattle. Let's see how she sounds with different tunes and check the cups for leaks and move from there.
 
  #8  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:09 PM
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Looks normal to me. Hide the white gloves before you drive yourself bonkers...
 
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:34 PM
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Get an OA. Could be coolant in your oil via oil cooler gasket. Happened to me.
 
  #10  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:54 PM
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Wait, coolant boiling and cracked container is bad?

Sorry if thats a stupid question but mine had a small crack along the seam that I sealed up and I could hear it sizzling through the hole. Should I be worried about this as well?
 
  #11  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:31 PM
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Not arguing, being contrary, or disagreeing:
  • There is a finger smudge in the bottle, a mechanic and I pulled a "sample" of the dark stuff and we agreed it was soot.
  • There is no oil or diesel scent in the bottle.
  • I find zero oil in the coolant, not even a rainbow sheen.
  • I find absolutely no indication of coolant in the oil.
  • The bottle has been clean and at the same level since I installed it... the dropping level and soot didn't show up until the missing cylinders started.
  • #6 and #8 injectors had loose hold-down bolts.
  • After tightening the bolts, #6 is still missing at idle and I still have the white smoke at startup.
Everything combined pushes me to worry what would happen if I ignore this and hope for the best (which hasn't worked for me yet). I don't need to spell out what would happen if the bottle drains down into a cylinder while the truck is parked over a period of time. If I'm over-reacting, I'll have shiny cups and piece of mind. If I relax and I'm wrong... swapping a long block is a little more involved (and uses more ammo) than swapping cups. Oh, I wish I had oil and coolant mixed somewhere... that would give me somplace else to look.

To entertain the theory of this being normal, how quick does the crud accumulate in the bottle? The picture is of what has happened over the last three tanks of fuel.

Originally Posted by CoachGJ View Post
Wait, coolant boiling and cracked container is bad?

Sorry if thats a stupid question but mine had a small crack along the seam that I sealed up and I could hear it sizzling through the hole. Should I be worried about this as well?
My bottle is not cracked, I have a different problem. It's a new bottle this summer and it's been clean on the inside until I had a broblem with my truck running poorly on my vacation.
 
  #12  
Old 11-27-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tugly View Post
[... how quick does the crud accumulate in the bottle? The picture is of what has happened over the last three tanks of fuel.
That is probably too quick. You may have an issue brewing then...

I think it normally takes quite a while (years) for the residue to accumulate enough to notice. The design of a degas tank cooling system lends itself to the formation of residue over long periods of time. If you were to cut open a tank, there should be reducing levels of crud in the bottom of each chamber (working away from the hot supply hose). The SD degas tank design for '99-'03 have always been fairly filthy compared to other trucks in our fleet. I think it's due to the stair step chamber design. Also, being a somewhat transparent bottle doesn't help conceal any issues because the residue will sometimes collect and make a 'ring' around the inside of the tank where the hot fluid level is. Then when the vehicle has sat for several days in the cold weather the coolant volume shrinks and exposes the residue for all to see. On the plus side, the degas tank on our SD trucks do a great job collecting the residue and limit circulation around the rest of the cooling system.

Out of curiosity, I took the opportunity a few moments ago to spot check a few of our fleet vehicles in the yard. The 7.3 trucks were just rolling in so I didn't want to pop the cap on a hot and pressurized system so I checked 4 or 5 different trucks at random. I tried to get a sampling of various brands and types for discussions sake. The second photo down is from a V10 F450 truck and there was quite a bit of residue in that tank, enough to register on my finger when I took a swipe. The F-750 Cummins and V6 Power Stroke both have fairly low miles and those tanks felt fairly clean. The truck with the most residue was a 1999 Freightliner with a ton of miles (bottom photo).

I find it interesting that even the V10 6.8L gasoline engine has residue in the degas bottle. That engine has an oil to water cooler....

If I were to hazard a guess as to possible sources of coolant contamination, then an oil cooler would be pretty high on that list. 'tis the season...
 
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:42 PM
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[quote=Tugly;12530126]Not arguing, being contrary, or disagreeing:
  • There is a finger smudge in the bottle, a mechanic and I pulled a "sample" of the dark stuff and we agreed it was soot.
  • There is no oil or diesel scent in the bottle.
  • I find zero oil in the coolant, not even a rainbow sheen.
  • I find absolutely no indication of coolant in the oil.
  • The bottle has been clean and at the same level since I installed it... the dropping level and soot didn't show up until the missing cylinders started.
  • #6 and #8 injectors had loose hold-down bolts.
  • After tightening the bolts, #6 is still missing at idle and I still have the white smoke at startup.
Everything combined pushes me to worry what would happen if I ignore this and hope for the best (which hasn't worked for me yet). I don't need to spell out what would happen if the bottle drains down into a cylinder while the truck is parked over a period of time. If I'm over-reacting, I'll have shiny cups and piece of mind. If I relax and I'm wrong... swapping a long block is a little more involved (and uses more ammo) than swapping cups. Oh, I wish I had oil and coolant mixed somewhere... that would give me somplace else to look.

To entertain the theory of this being normal, how quick does the crud accumulate in the bottle? The picture is of what has happened over the last three tanks of fuel.



My bottle is not cracked, I have a different problem. It's a new bottle this summer and it's been clean on the inside until I had a broblem with my truck running poorly on my vacation.[/quThe only way you will notice coolant in the oil is to get a OA. the water usually vapourizers with the oil getting hot , the smoking gun is the active chemicals in your coolant that show up in your OA. But your problem sort of leans towards injector issues from what you have said. But hey an OA is cheap.
 
  #14  
Old 11-28-2012, 06:33 AM
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The deeper I go into this and the more people see that picture, the more confirmation I get of what I've been "taught" so far. The OA makes perfect sense, but I would be forced to disagree with vaporizing water/antifreeze in oil that never exceeds 200 degrees. I don't even want to imagine what that grey sludge would do to the poppet valves in all 8 injectors.

This turn of events is disheartening after so much Buck$Zooka ammo, busted knuckles, imposition on fellow FTE members, and time has been invested into Stinky. It is challenging to keep upbeat - but not impossible. As I get more informed, this has a calming effect and I can think my way through the problem, but another deadline is doing a bull-charge toward Stinky and I. I knew long ago I would need the truck for back-to-back events and I did everything in my power to prevent what has occurred. Hopefully a new set of cups just about covers what needs to be done to run AC 160/100 injectors. If I had gone AC 160 with stock nozzles, I doubt I'd be experiencing this with a truck that has over 1/4-million miles. I believe I made a bad call and this is my lump in my sugar... it just needs to be worked out.
 
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:26 AM
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I have never noticed this in my truck. Mine just never keeps coolant at the fill line. Fill it up and a while later it will be an inch low. Dont know where it goes but it holds at the 1 inch low forever. So I just don't fill it al the way up anymore. I have been wondering about the cups on my truck with 247,000 miles. Just have to wait an see I guess. I hope that the cups fix the problem for ya since that would be the cheapest route.
 

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