So, as part of this year's Halloween costume (my job has costume contests), I decided to buy a sword.

The sword is a Twisted Hilt Scottish Claymore (Claidheamh Mòr) - the two-hander, not the basket hilt.

Here's a link to the specs: Specs for Twisted Hilt Claymore

The blade is high carbon steel and Strongblade's customer service tells me it is untempered. However, they tell me it is more than just a "wallhanger" (they told me "You may get some wear on the blade with use. It is not made for repeated blade to blade contact") - something in-between wallhanger and functional, at this point... It just shipped out today so, I won't see it for another few days.

I sent them another email asking them if they knew if the blade was 1045 or 1060 carbon steel, but they haven't responded yet - To err on the side of caution, it might be best to consider it 1045 (given that it was only a $108 sword.)

My question is this: Would it be possible to harden and temper the blade as it is? The pommel, hilt, and crossbar are removable and it's a full tang sword. I'm pretty sure I can find someone with a forge - or maybe I can get a good healthy bed of coals going in my old Weber grill LOL...

I'm thinking it would be cooler than hell to take this untempered blade and be able to turn it into a functional blade, but I'm not sure whether or not the hardening/tempering process has to be done at the time of production or if it can be done later - which is why I'm asking here...

Yeah, you should have heard the conversation I had with the HR manager about it - she presented a scenario where someone might try to unsheath it and use it against someone - I told her that this thing would be strapped across my back in a baldric and, with me being 6'2" tall and the sword being 5' long, it would be extremely difficult for someone to do that - especially in an office building with 8-foot ceilings. Besides, from what I've read, large swords like this weren't carried into battle strapped on the back but rather, they were carried on the shoulder (don't let the movie "Braveheart" fool you) - there are some indications that swords like the Claymore, Zweihander, and Hand-and-a-half might have been strapped on to the back just for transport purposes, though...

If it can't be hardened and tempered, it's no big deal, just wondering...

Alba gu bràth!

 

if you do heat it up to temper it remember the quicker it cools the harder and more brittle it becomes do not i repeat do not temper with water use oil at a minimum my personal favorite was cool damp sand i used that quite often and i have never had a knife break on me

 

Thanks. I had been wondering about that...

As far as to what temperature to heat the metal up to, is there a difference between the 1045 and 1060 carbon steels? What would be the ideal temp to heat the blade up to to temper it? Is this something that can be done in a backyard fire pit?

I got to thinking last night - I'm not sure if the blade has already been hardened - I would assume so as it seems to me that it would be part of the manufacturing process, but this is the first time I've delved into this so, I'm trying to learn as I go...

 

Before I went thru all the time and trouble of trying to heat or temper or modify the blade, I would open the handle to see if the tang, (I think that's the correct term?...) extends thru the whole length of the handle? And if the tang is a full handle width, not just a skinny cheap metal rod. There are some very good sword informational vids on youtube that shows what to look for when buying good quality swords. I'm not a sword collector or user, but found the vids to be interesting and informative.


On another note; I dont know of any company that would allow bringing a weapon onsite. My current owners would have a coniption fit due to the liabilities. Have you considered making a fake metal sword with realistic paint?

 

What you're describing is called Full Tang and, yes, I've already confirmed that this sword has a full tang and not the "rattail tang" (which is the cheapo threaded rod found in wallhanger swords.) The Sword Buyer's Guide is an excellent resource to find information.

The definition of "weapon" in this case is loose - Sellers like Strongblade don't ship sharpened blades for this very reason - a sharpened blade is most definitely a weapon, but a dulled blade kind of falls into a grey area - especially with those used on a theatrical stage. I don't intend on modifying the blade until after Halloween (probably won't be until next spring/summer at this rate LOL) and I'll be securing the sword to the scabbard/baldric in such a way that it can't be easily removed. Because of it's size, I won't be wearing it around all the time - just make a couple of appearances with it and that's it - It'll be spending most of it's time lying on a table in my office.

A fake sword is out of the question as I'm trying to create a fairly period-correct costume (which maybe might pass in a Ren Faire.) I'm fabricating vambraces and a baldric now, I've got the kilt made (not out of wool, though) and I'm still looking for a couple of pieces to tie it all together - I'll have to buy the boots... I'm looking at somewhere between $200 and $300 by the time I'm done with it all.

 

it doesn't matter which type of steel it us as long as the entire blade is red hot (to the point of glowing good in the dark) then it is ready and yes you can do it in a backyard fire pit i personally used an old wood stove and used hedge firewood with a squirrel cage fan blowing on it and it worked almost as good as regular coal but you don't have to do that since you aren't actually making a blade you don't need quick reheat times just as long as the entire blade is red hot and then you cool it and let it set for a little while then after you test it to your satisfaction then all you have to do is polish it to your desired gleam but it is very doubtful you will ever get it as shiny as it will be when it arrives but it will have a more realistic look instead of a fake overly shiny stamped steel piece that everyone else has and it would actually take abuse not snap in half the first time you hit something......it is a little bit of trial and error to find the exact right methods i would honestly suggest you buy an el cheapo deapo $20 super knockoff katana and practice on it until you get to where it becomes a certain strength yet flexible enough that it isn't brittle then move on to your prize possession

 

Sounds like what you're describing is hardening the blade. Wouldn't it need to be tempered afterward so that it isn't as brittle? I'm going on the assumption that this blade is machine milled so there's a chance it hasn't already been hardened...

I've been watching some YouTube videos and in one of them, this guy uses a propane torch to temper a blade after it had been hardened. I've also been looking into building cheap and easy forges using firebrick and charcoal. I wasn't sure about using a fan as, you're right, I'm not actually making the blade - just heating it up.

I'm not concerned about the shiny - I actually want it to look more realistic.

Good point about practicing on a cheapo sword first - those stainless steel wallhangers are plentiful...

After reviewing what other people used to quench their blades (water, oil, etc.) I decided I liked your idea of using damp sand as it seems to me a better way to get a slow but even quench on the blade. Besides, I don't like the way oil ignites when you stick something red hot into it...

 

Hopefully vikingbabe will check in on this. From comments, I believe that her husband made swords, so he might have a few inside tips.

hj

Edit - that's VikingBabe

 

when i was in high school i had a lot of time to kill in the evenings so i had a small forge built and a good anvil and i used to make knives all the time i learned quite a bit from that experience and i used to go watch the blacksmiths at fairs and silver dollar city and a couple old school fix it men and gathered as much information as i could and after some practice i got to where i could make damascus knives out of about anything including the two knives i made out of 1-1/2" steel cable those were very time consuming but had the most amazing knife blade pattern i made longer knives that i tempered to where i could bend them about 3" right or left and they would go back straight with no sign of the bend being permanent they held a good edge and you could break cinder blocks without nicking the blade but that is a lot of experience before you get to that stage take your time and enjoy yourself it is kind of a forgotten art and one you learn how to do it some of your buddies (like mine did) will request you do it for them for a small amount of money you can do something none of your buddies can do and make small $ doing it i really am considering starting my forge back up and selling a few of my knives because times are tough and money is scarce if you have any questions just ask and i will give you as much knowledge as i can pass just by typing good luck Furyus1

 

Thanks for the tips. This has given me something to ponder. Whether or not I make this a serious venture, only time will tell... I still have to get my coffee roaster back up and running so, it's not like I'm starving for projects LOL... Besides, it sounds like I need to do some more research into knifemaking/swordmaking techniques and how to work the metals...

A co-worker of mine is a martial arts expert who makes his own swords - I've been tapping him for info as well. I may try to talk him into working this blade but, the last time I talked to him, he was concerned about it becoming too brittle.

He also told me to not buy a sword - when I asked him why, he responded by saying that it's an addiction... I can see why...

I've found that people are making knives out of railroad spikes - I've got a pile of those around here somewhere... Hmmm.... Maybe a future project...

 

i made a railroad spike knife but it was mainly just the handle i forged it together with an old rasp (type of file) made a really awesome looking knife it was a big bugger about 16" long but it would of made crocodile dundee proud lol my all time favorite though is my broadsword i made from a 79 f350 mainspring its heavy but i'm a big ol boy got it half done and my old stove got too hot and melted down around it but i have abused the hell out of it even whacked a dryer in two with it only damaged it when i hit the electric motor lol

 

Unless the site states it was actually "forged", you can assume it was milled/sanded from "stock".

1045 is a pretty low carbon alloy to make such a long blade from. By the way, The numbers mean the percentage of carbon added to the iron. The better swords had a higher amount of carbon mixed with the iron ore. If you go online, you'll find the custom smiths using ore in the 1060 -1075 range. A few use 1050 but that's about as low as you want to go....anything else is too mild a steel to temper.

You can make a knife from a railroad spike but it's very low grade steel...almost none. It can't be tempered....too soft. Knives made from cable, look pretty because of the "Pattern" from the process (in effect producing a "Pattern welded" blade...that some call "Damascus". This was a form of Watered Steel for lesser blades and got its' name from Victorian times by visitors going to Syria. BUT, tempering it is another matter.....just like a railroad spike.

Some smiths use Spring Steel, which is a high carbon steel alloy with some nickel and chromium. This makes a longer blade "springy" after tempering/annealing process. It will "spring" back to "true" when bended but not take a "set" (stay bent) which would happen if it was annealed too soft.
Spring Steel is what the flat car and truck springs are made of...and for a very good reason. The alloy makes the metal "tough" and yet "springy". To allow "give" yet go back to "true"....

Ok, sometimes a set may eventually have a broken spring. But a smith can take it out, overlap and forgeweld the ends. Then put it back into the forge, hammer and temper and anneal it. Then stick it back into the set again. I've seen my husband do this with a couple of leaf springs for a 64 Dodge truck we had back 30 years ago. It was a hard used farm truck (slant six) before we got it in the late 70s. Up until it was sold a few years ago, those repaired leaves were still in one piece and remained "tough" and "springy", as if they were never broken.

Anyway.....

My husband uses Spring Steel 5160 alloy exclusively. In his readings (over 55 years ago when he started, the numbering may be new but the alloy wasn't. The Iron Age Celts, Germans and Thracians had mines where this alloy was naturally found in parts of Spain, Germany and Easter Europe. Their swordsmiths may not have known the specific alloys that created this particular iron ore....they did know how to forge, and temper blades. Despite what the Romans may have written about how "awful and soft" the Celtic/German blades were...it was propaganda as after they invaded, these mines were quickly taken over.

The Secret of Steel was kept alive after the Roman fall by a few smiths. By the 8th Century, more high carbon/spring steel blades were being made again. Enough to take over from the previously made patternwelded (carbonized iron strips woven with softer iron ones) blades.

Anyway, enough of the history lesson.

A long blade is subject to more and different stresses than a shorter knife blade. Buck knife used to have an advertisement showing it's carbon steel blades were hard enough and sharp enough to be hammered/ cut through a soft iron nail. There is no need for a blade to do this. It may look "good" but it's hard edge could chip and the blade snap. Why Furnace Rockwell Hardening is not all it's cracked up to be. My husband was shown some Military knives that had snapped at the hilt because they were hardened too much. The process May be fine for knives....but not for long blades.

When a blade is hammer forged, the smith is changing the molecular structure of the blade. The Tempering process afterwards is twofold....hardening and then annealing the blade. By the way, You don't quench the blade in water...that would make it extremely brittle.....you do it in oil.

A well tempered/ annealed blade should be "tough" and yet "springy". Especially for longer swordblades.....like a claymore. Rockwell Furnace Hardening "overall" techniques may leave the blade brittle and it could snap because it has no "give".

Putting a blade back into the forge fire to be annealed is to put back "some" softening......but not the whole blade. It's an art and a science to know where and what part. Generally just below the shoulders of the blade up the tang must have some "give" returned. The steel goes through a series of colors as it gets hotter or colder. You can read what the colors mean "temperatures wise"....roughly. But the true way is learning by doing it. Trial and error.

A good tang shape is being wider at the blade shoulders and has a taper up towards the pommel. Historically, a lot of tangs were not threaded. The pommels were cast or handmade with tapered holes to be slipped onto the tapered tang. Then the tang's top was peened over to tighten the hilt (guard, grip and pommel) down tight against the blade shoulders.

If a sword has a screwed on pommel, the tang's threaded part should not be butt welded to the end of the tang....if so, it will snap off eventually. The better threaded tangs have an overlapped bolt that has been forgewelded to the tang itself.

A sword blade should be thicker in the middle and thins out to the edge. Even a good machine made one should have this but not all do. The thickness is only slightly less at the edges than in the middle...but it depends.

All steel blades will get dings and notches along the edge used in combat. What you see in movies, theater and other entertainments, are done with blades where the edges are rebated meaning not hammered down to a thinner edge and left un-sharpened.

Not all steel alloys are suitable. What is ok for a shorter knife may not be suitable to undergo the stresses a longer blade is subject to. Stainless Steel is the most popular alloy and is used for making cheap commercially made sword blades because they are rust free and look pretty. But the alloy is very hard to temper and why you see these in stamped out of hardened "blanks". I know armourers who use Stainless Steel sheet to make helmets and body armour with......and they all say it's a "bear" to work with. But it takes weapons blows well and a lot of beating compared to milder steel sheet.

I've seen Tool Steel used for swordblades and it's another unsuitable alloy for making any blades with. One smith made a sword blade using tool steel and when showing it off to a customer, the blade snapped. You could see the metal was crystalized and had impurities.

I know there are some youtube videos on "how to forge a swordblade" or how to temper one.....

Sheesh, another famous manuscript.....hope this helps.

 

That was impressive Vikingbabe!!

 

Yes, it does help - I thank you for the "manuscript" - very interesting reading...

I'm starting to lean toward just leaving the Claymore blade alone. I don't actually have a "need" for a functional sword (especially one that size) - I was just curious what could be done with it. From the sounds of it, trying to harden/temper/anneal the blade won't accomplish much and might actually make it worse...

A seed has been planted in my mind though - I may, at some point, try and learn how to forge knife/sword blades but, it won't be happening any time real soon... Sounds like a very interesting hobby... I'll have to look around and see if anyone around here is teaching classes on how to do this...

UPS reported yesterday that the sword won't be delivered here until the 25th (does it really take that long for them to deliver something from Connecticut to Idaho? This is one of the reasons why I loathe UPS.) When it gets here, I'll be able to better determine what to do with it - or what not to do with it... I'll take some pictures of it and post them up here.

Thanks again guys - it's much appreciated!

 

vikingbabe ......you.....are.....awesome!!!!!!!!