Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
#1
10-05-2002, 02:43 PM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
Just how bad is it in Canada( A larger Country )compared to the U.S.?
Knowing of this eventually happening for the last 15 years, has really made me upset about our Federal Government.
A military on the verge of collapse
Canada's crumbling Forces putting the entire nation at risk: blue-ribbon panel
David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen
Saturday, October 05, 2002
Defence Minister John McCallum has said the Canadian Forces are still a capable and effective force and would be able to make a substantial contribution to any upcoming war effort against Iraq. (CP/Archive)
ADVERTISEMENT
As Canadian military officials prepare for a potential war in Iraq, a blue-ribbon panel of retired officers has just produced one of the most devastating studies yet to outline just how close to collapse the country's Armed Forces is.
According to the report, to be released Tuesday, the situation in the Canadian Forces has become so bad that up to half the army's vehicles and weapon systems could be sidelined within the next 18 months because of a lack of spare parts.
As well, over the next three to five years the financially exhausted navy stands to be reduced from its ranking as a world-class force capable of international operations to only being able to patrol Canadian waters.
And Canada's dwindling military strength has all but eroded the country's influence in international affairs, according to the study, A Nation at Risk, produced by the Conference of Defence Associations. "Because of its weak defence efforts, Canada no longer has a seat at many tables," concludes the sweeping report. "It is now often in the third rank as a 'note taker.' "
The Conference of Defence Associations is a pro-military lobby group with membership among veterans, the public and serving members of the Canadian military.
The study was compiled by a group of academics and retired officers including a former Norad deputy commander and the army's recently retired command inspector.
Much of the information for the report was obtained from the military's own documents released through the Access to Information law.
The report finds that the substantial decline in the Canadian Forces is putting the entire nation at risk in terms of losing its security against domestic and international threats, its economic prosperity and especially its sovereignty.
Defence Minister John McCallum has said the Canadian Forces are still a capable and effective force and would be able to make a substantial contribution to any upcoming war effort against Iraq. But A Nation at Risk calls those claims into question. Among its findings:
- The army is facing a 30-per-cent reduction in its ability to conduct operations as the number of qualified officers and junior leaders continues to shrink.
- So many army officers are approaching early retirement between 2004 and 2009 that if they leave, the army's ability to command units will be reduced by half by the end of the decade.
- Severe shortages of technicians means that only half the weapons on the military's high-tech Coyote and LAV-3 armoured vehicles are ready for operations.
- The air force faces a critical lack of trained and experienced personnel. Flying hours have been reduced significantly, and the number of trained pilots for each type of aircraft is declining.
- A lack of pilots and reduced flying times mean the air force will no longer be able to conduct around-the-clock maritime surveillance on the east and west coasts. On the West Coast, it will no longer be able to support the Department of Fisheries in its patrols.
- Search-and-rescue commitments will be maintained, but at reduced levels in some regions.
- The army's patchwork of new and old equipment and a lack of instructors to train soldiers has hurt combat efficiency. It is not unusual to have armoured vehicle crews who cannot operate their radios.
- While U.S. officials appreciate Canada's contributions to the Afghanistan war, the fact the troops couldn't stay beyond six months undermined much of that good will. "The U.S. also knows that these early contributions were a 'façade' designed to mask general Canadian military weakness," according to the report.
- Severe financial problems in the navy will undermine Canadian sovereignty. In the near future, the navy will have no alternative but to concentrate on patrolling the country's coastal waters, and even that would have to be conducted under the direction of the U.S. navy.
The report lays blame for the demise of the Canadian Forces on the Liberal government's failure to fund its own 1994 Defence White Paper.
A Nation at Risk also dismantles government claims that it has committed more than $5 billion to defence since 1999. Most of that money has been used for non-military objectives such as quality-of-life improvements for soldiers and their families, the report determined.
The Liberals are conducting a review of defence programs and priorities, but it is uncertain what will come of it. This week's throne speech contained only a brief mention of the Canadian military, and vaguely discussed setting out a long-term direction for defence policy. Most of the speech contained details of new programs with emphasis on improving health care and foreign aid, as well as new ways to fight child poverty. Mr. McCallum is reportedly trying to get $1 billion in new funding for the Canadian Forces.
But A Nation at Risk has determined that the military needs an immediate boost of $1.5 billion just to slow the current rate of decline. It has also called into question whether the review Mr. McCallum is conducting will address any of the major problems the military faces.
Instead, the report recommends the government produce a new Defence White Paper before the end of 2003.
The United States, Britain and Australia have all reviewed their defence policies and have joined France and Spain in increasing military spending. Canada has done neither.
"The situation regarding unsatisfactory Canadian defence is analogous to parents who sign up their children for a sport, then won't buy them equipment to play," the report argues.
Retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie said he found the findings of the study extremely disturbing. "It's an extremely well-done report, but very scary," said Mr. MacKenzie, who has given talks to the Conference of Defence Associations but is not a member of the organization. "I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was that bad."
Particularly worrisome, according to the report, is Canada's deteriorating relationship with the U.S. The study's researchers conducted a series of interviews with American policymakers and defence experts in Washington in July.
"There is considerable ill will towards Canada in the U.S., resulting from anti-American statements by senior Canadian politicians and officials," the report warns. "This helps shape a poor view of Canada in the eyes of the Bush administration. There is a real animosity between political Washington and political Ottawa."
Americans, it notes, are tiring of Canada's "freeloading" attitude toward defence issues. Eyebrows were raised in the U.S. when Canada decided to withdraw from Afghanistan after only six months and before the war was over, it states.
American lawmakers also believe Canada is a haven for terrorists. "Overall, the U.S. view of Canada is moving from 'benign neglect' to 'emerging hostility,' " according to A Nation at Risk.
Other key areas of the country's military are facing major problems as well. For instance, the Canadian Forces supply system can rarely meet urgent demands, as there is a shortage of maintenance personnel and a lack of spare parts. The two main reasons are a lack of money and the Alternative Service Delivery program, which replaces military members with civilians employed by private companies.
Alternative Service Delivery has hurt the Armed Forces because it causes a higher rate of attrition of skilled military workers as they are lured to the private sector -- which in turn sells their services back to the Department of National Defence.
Numerous overseas missions in the past decade have also put an incredible strain on the army's junior leadership, which includes master corporals, sergeants and captains. Many of those people work in excess of 80 overtime days a year, the report determined.
But it also found that most of these overworked personnel have 15 to 19 years of service and will be eligible for early retirement soon. Many are under family pressure to leave the army, according to the study. "The government had best to brace itself for the unexpected," warns A Nation at Risk. "The dependability of their disciplined force-of-last resort is about to become less predictable."
Recovery is also going to be difficult. The study determined it would take a decade and $5 billion to just allow the army to begin the slow path to recapturing its past capabilities.
But it also notes that the part-time soldiers of the militia, while undervalued, hold the key to meeting a large share of Canada's defence needs in the 21st century and in a most cost-effective manner. Militia units located in 125 communities across the country are well-suited for homeland defence and cost less than regular force troops, it adds.
A Nation at Risk concludes that the only way Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and his close advisers could be persuaded to increase defence spending would be if a major national embarrassment were to occur because of a weak Canadian military. "In the present situation, this is possible," it warns.
Mr. MacKenzie grimly agrees. He is not hopeful that the government will soon change its attitude toward the military and pump in more money. Although individual MPs realize there is a growing problem in the Canadian Forces, the only one who can change the situation is the prime minister, he added.
But in December, Mr. Chrétien told journalists what he really thought about the military, noted Mr. MacKenzie.
In those year-end interviews, the prime minister suggested the military would not see any further government money and would have to learn to live within its means. "They always complain that they don't have enough money, but we have to adjust our policy in defence to the needs," Mr. Chrétien said.
Contact David Pugliese at dpugliese@thecitizen.southam.ca
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FTE Assistant Administrator
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Knowing of this eventually happening for the last 15 years, has really made me upset about our Federal Government.
A military on the verge of collapse
Canada's crumbling Forces putting the entire nation at risk: blue-ribbon panel
David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen
Saturday, October 05, 2002
Defence Minister John McCallum has said the Canadian Forces are still a capable and effective force and would be able to make a substantial contribution to any upcoming war effort against Iraq. (CP/Archive)
ADVERTISEMENT
As Canadian military officials prepare for a potential war in Iraq, a blue-ribbon panel of retired officers has just produced one of the most devastating studies yet to outline just how close to collapse the country's Armed Forces is.
According to the report, to be released Tuesday, the situation in the Canadian Forces has become so bad that up to half the army's vehicles and weapon systems could be sidelined within the next 18 months because of a lack of spare parts.
As well, over the next three to five years the financially exhausted navy stands to be reduced from its ranking as a world-class force capable of international operations to only being able to patrol Canadian waters.
And Canada's dwindling military strength has all but eroded the country's influence in international affairs, according to the study, A Nation at Risk, produced by the Conference of Defence Associations. "Because of its weak defence efforts, Canada no longer has a seat at many tables," concludes the sweeping report. "It is now often in the third rank as a 'note taker.' "
The Conference of Defence Associations is a pro-military lobby group with membership among veterans, the public and serving members of the Canadian military.
The study was compiled by a group of academics and retired officers including a former Norad deputy commander and the army's recently retired command inspector.
Much of the information for the report was obtained from the military's own documents released through the Access to Information law.
The report finds that the substantial decline in the Canadian Forces is putting the entire nation at risk in terms of losing its security against domestic and international threats, its economic prosperity and especially its sovereignty.
Defence Minister John McCallum has said the Canadian Forces are still a capable and effective force and would be able to make a substantial contribution to any upcoming war effort against Iraq. But A Nation at Risk calls those claims into question. Among its findings:
- The army is facing a 30-per-cent reduction in its ability to conduct operations as the number of qualified officers and junior leaders continues to shrink.
- So many army officers are approaching early retirement between 2004 and 2009 that if they leave, the army's ability to command units will be reduced by half by the end of the decade.
- Severe shortages of technicians means that only half the weapons on the military's high-tech Coyote and LAV-3 armoured vehicles are ready for operations.
- The air force faces a critical lack of trained and experienced personnel. Flying hours have been reduced significantly, and the number of trained pilots for each type of aircraft is declining.
- A lack of pilots and reduced flying times mean the air force will no longer be able to conduct around-the-clock maritime surveillance on the east and west coasts. On the West Coast, it will no longer be able to support the Department of Fisheries in its patrols.
- Search-and-rescue commitments will be maintained, but at reduced levels in some regions.
- The army's patchwork of new and old equipment and a lack of instructors to train soldiers has hurt combat efficiency. It is not unusual to have armoured vehicle crews who cannot operate their radios.
- While U.S. officials appreciate Canada's contributions to the Afghanistan war, the fact the troops couldn't stay beyond six months undermined much of that good will. "The U.S. also knows that these early contributions were a 'façade' designed to mask general Canadian military weakness," according to the report.
- Severe financial problems in the navy will undermine Canadian sovereignty. In the near future, the navy will have no alternative but to concentrate on patrolling the country's coastal waters, and even that would have to be conducted under the direction of the U.S. navy.
The report lays blame for the demise of the Canadian Forces on the Liberal government's failure to fund its own 1994 Defence White Paper.
A Nation at Risk also dismantles government claims that it has committed more than $5 billion to defence since 1999. Most of that money has been used for non-military objectives such as quality-of-life improvements for soldiers and their families, the report determined.
The Liberals are conducting a review of defence programs and priorities, but it is uncertain what will come of it. This week's throne speech contained only a brief mention of the Canadian military, and vaguely discussed setting out a long-term direction for defence policy. Most of the speech contained details of new programs with emphasis on improving health care and foreign aid, as well as new ways to fight child poverty. Mr. McCallum is reportedly trying to get $1 billion in new funding for the Canadian Forces.
But A Nation at Risk has determined that the military needs an immediate boost of $1.5 billion just to slow the current rate of decline. It has also called into question whether the review Mr. McCallum is conducting will address any of the major problems the military faces.
Instead, the report recommends the government produce a new Defence White Paper before the end of 2003.
The United States, Britain and Australia have all reviewed their defence policies and have joined France and Spain in increasing military spending. Canada has done neither.
"The situation regarding unsatisfactory Canadian defence is analogous to parents who sign up their children for a sport, then won't buy them equipment to play," the report argues.
Retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie said he found the findings of the study extremely disturbing. "It's an extremely well-done report, but very scary," said Mr. MacKenzie, who has given talks to the Conference of Defence Associations but is not a member of the organization. "I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was that bad."
Particularly worrisome, according to the report, is Canada's deteriorating relationship with the U.S. The study's researchers conducted a series of interviews with American policymakers and defence experts in Washington in July.
"There is considerable ill will towards Canada in the U.S., resulting from anti-American statements by senior Canadian politicians and officials," the report warns. "This helps shape a poor view of Canada in the eyes of the Bush administration. There is a real animosity between political Washington and political Ottawa."
Americans, it notes, are tiring of Canada's "freeloading" attitude toward defence issues. Eyebrows were raised in the U.S. when Canada decided to withdraw from Afghanistan after only six months and before the war was over, it states.
American lawmakers also believe Canada is a haven for terrorists. "Overall, the U.S. view of Canada is moving from 'benign neglect' to 'emerging hostility,' " according to A Nation at Risk.
Other key areas of the country's military are facing major problems as well. For instance, the Canadian Forces supply system can rarely meet urgent demands, as there is a shortage of maintenance personnel and a lack of spare parts. The two main reasons are a lack of money and the Alternative Service Delivery program, which replaces military members with civilians employed by private companies.
Alternative Service Delivery has hurt the Armed Forces because it causes a higher rate of attrition of skilled military workers as they are lured to the private sector -- which in turn sells their services back to the Department of National Defence.
Numerous overseas missions in the past decade have also put an incredible strain on the army's junior leadership, which includes master corporals, sergeants and captains. Many of those people work in excess of 80 overtime days a year, the report determined.
But it also found that most of these overworked personnel have 15 to 19 years of service and will be eligible for early retirement soon. Many are under family pressure to leave the army, according to the study. "The government had best to brace itself for the unexpected," warns A Nation at Risk. "The dependability of their disciplined force-of-last resort is about to become less predictable."
Recovery is also going to be difficult. The study determined it would take a decade and $5 billion to just allow the army to begin the slow path to recapturing its past capabilities.
But it also notes that the part-time soldiers of the militia, while undervalued, hold the key to meeting a large share of Canada's defence needs in the 21st century and in a most cost-effective manner. Militia units located in 125 communities across the country are well-suited for homeland defence and cost less than regular force troops, it adds.
A Nation at Risk concludes that the only way Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and his close advisers could be persuaded to increase defence spending would be if a major national embarrassment were to occur because of a weak Canadian military. "In the present situation, this is possible," it warns.
Mr. MacKenzie grimly agrees. He is not hopeful that the government will soon change its attitude toward the military and pump in more money. Although individual MPs realize there is a growing problem in the Canadian Forces, the only one who can change the situation is the prime minister, he added.
But in December, Mr. Chrétien told journalists what he really thought about the military, noted Mr. MacKenzie.
In those year-end interviews, the prime minister suggested the military would not see any further government money and would have to learn to live within its means. "They always complain that they don't have enough money, but we have to adjust our policy in defence to the needs," Mr. Chrétien said.
Contact David Pugliese at dpugliese@thecitizen.southam.ca
[font color=red]Dennis
FTE Assistant Administrator
[/font]
[link:www.ford-trucks.com/guidelines.html|Club FTE]
[link: motorhaven.autoanything.com|How YOU Can Support This Site]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/canada_flag_animated.gif
[link:www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Mil1ion.html|My Website,"North Of The 49th"]
#2
10-05-2002, 06:20 PM
#3
10-05-2002, 07:36 PM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
Stompin' Tom for Prime Minister! He'll fix er up..
A man of the land! A song for every province. And a man that can rhyme like he can deserves to get elected.
"Well the girls are off to bingo
and the boys are gettin stinko:+
They'll think no more of INCO
cause its Sudbury Saturday Night..."
I'm not even from there and I can relate to that...
I can get him elected down here I bet.
A man of the land! A song for every province. And a man that can rhyme like he can deserves to get elected.
"Well the girls are off to bingo
and the boys are gettin stinko:+
They'll think no more of INCO
cause its Sudbury Saturday Night..."
I'm not even from there and I can relate to that...
I can get him elected down here I bet.
#4
10-05-2002, 08:08 PM
#5
10-06-2002, 10:28 PM
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Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-Oct-02 AT 11:29 PM (EST)]haha..in Uncle John's Trivia or w/e its called i believe it said that 50% of canadians think that Canada will be part of the US within 30 years or something like that..anyone else saw this?..its probably true haha
(i think most sportsmen that go up to the canada areas for different fish/game..would appreciate that due to the fact of all the stuff canada puts on these guys..like permits and checks and laws and all that good stuff)
(i think most sportsmen that go up to the canada areas for different fish/game..would appreciate that due to the fact of all the stuff canada puts on these guys..like permits and checks and laws and all that good stuff)
#7
10-07-2002, 11:24 AM
Fleet Mechanic
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#9
10-07-2002, 11:37 AM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
Canadians sure are a funny sort. We complain about a failing military. If our government was funding our military so that we had one of the strongest in the world everyone would complain that something else was being negleted. So the government is in a lose - lose situation no matter what.
Fordy
Fordy
#10
10-07-2002, 04:03 PM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
I understand that having an impressive military is a matter of national pride, but I do not think Canadians have anything to worry about if their sovereignty was ever threatened. Unless of course, it was the United States doing the threatening.
#11
10-07-2002, 04:58 PM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
You want Canadian..here's Canadian
The other night the Queen droped the puck for the Vancouver San Jose game. The ever classy Mike Ricci (San Jose Sharks) took the faceoff and...
aapparently he was so honored that he told a local radio station "I put my teeth in!!!"
Now that's Canadian! Ha!
The other night the Queen droped the puck for the Vancouver San Jose game. The ever classy Mike Ricci (San Jose Sharks) took the faceoff and...
aapparently he was so honored that he told a local radio station "I put my teeth in!!!"
Now that's Canadian! Ha!
#12
10-07-2002, 05:51 PM
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Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
haha, i heard about the puck thing although i didnt get to see it, and yea thats just wonderful...but sooner or later id bet it will become part of the US, cant u imagine it, Canada (the state), and u have all these humungus friggin counties called northwest territory, the yukon, etc etc lol
#13
10-07-2002, 08:36 PM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
There are sopme admirable aspects of the Canadian military. I used to live in Cold Lake, Alberta (close to the Canadian version of area 51! 
).
They have yearly air training exercises called Maple Flag. Canada does EXTREMELY well in this exercise, and the last time I lived there, they were ranked number 1 in the world.
The air force of Canada has a great history, and they still seem to be able to 'keep in the air', unlike the other levels of military.
Canada is sitting here looking pretty. Next thing you know, we could just as easily have a Trade Center get toppled over, and then what? What happened in N.Y. should be a lesson to our federal government: How can you put a price on the security of our nation??? Things happen when you least suspect them. It is ignorance to think that no one would ever care to attack Canada. We have a very similar democracy to the US, in which we promote free enterprise and 'sky's the limit' thinking. Whatever the terrorists found in the US to be jealous of, can also be found right here, in Canada.
The way I see it, we are kinda part of the US already! I have no doubt that the americans would jump to their guns to help us out in conflict; not just because a threat here equals a threat to the US, but because I believe they like us, up here in the North! (At least my wife does!
)
Mark
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=5362&.jpg
Ford started it; Ford will finish it!
).They have yearly air training exercises called Maple Flag. Canada does EXTREMELY well in this exercise, and the last time I lived there, they were ranked number 1 in the world.
The air force of Canada has a great history, and they still seem to be able to 'keep in the air', unlike the other levels of military.
Canada is sitting here looking pretty. Next thing you know, we could just as easily have a Trade Center get toppled over, and then what? What happened in N.Y. should be a lesson to our federal government: How can you put a price on the security of our nation??? Things happen when you least suspect them. It is ignorance to think that no one would ever care to attack Canada. We have a very similar democracy to the US, in which we promote free enterprise and 'sky's the limit' thinking. Whatever the terrorists found in the US to be jealous of, can also be found right here, in Canada.
The way I see it, we are kinda part of the US already! I have no doubt that the americans would jump to their guns to help us out in conflict; not just because a threat here equals a threat to the US, but because I believe they like us, up here in the North! (At least my wife does!
)Mark
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=5362&.jpg
Ford started it; Ford will finish it!
#14
10-08-2002, 06:18 AM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
As one poster said, "don't worry, we got your back." There's no way the US would let anyone touch Canada because of our shared border, and hey, we like you (regardless of Green). But, it's sad that your politicians let your military get this way. Reminds me of what happened to the US military after Vietnam. If it wasn't for the Reagan build-up, Desert Storm would not have been such a relatively easy solution, and we wouldn't be able to think about doing it again while we're still in Afghanistan. I'm not comfortable with invading Iraq at this time, but it's good to know that we can if we have to.
#15
10-08-2002, 09:18 AM
Please Don't Invade Canada , Take Our Liberal Leader's Instead
Hey, speaking of war, does anyone remember the war of 1812? (most likely you weren't there! LOL) That is the only time Canada and US went to war, and Canada happened to win!
It was also a question on 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire' the other day.
Mark
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=5362&.jpg
Ford started it; Ford will finish it!
It was also a question on 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire' the other day.
Mark
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displaythumbnail.php?&photoid=5362&.jpg
Ford started it; Ford will finish it!