Ideas to prevent expensive HPFP system repairs
#151
03-17-2012, 10:40 PM
Well, I think that technically, the only way to stop an HPFP from destrying the fuel system is a high pressure filter.
However, if a larger company seemed to remedy the issue with a bolt on water seperator, I think we need to look at this VERY hard and close.
Can we get any more technical information about that engine, issues, etc so we can pick apart some information?
However, if a larger company seemed to remedy the issue with a bolt on water seperator, I think we need to look at this VERY hard and close.
Can we get any more technical information about that engine, issues, etc so we can pick apart some information?
#152
03-18-2012, 10:11 AM
Fleet Mechanic
John Deere ran into a similar problem a few years back. They are using high common rail pressures and EGRs in the 2009ish models.
Here is a picture of their solution. This is a dealer installed option. It is a 60micron filter/water seperator. It is mounted outside the frame, before the two factory filters.
Here is a picture of their solution. This is a dealer installed option. It is a 60micron filter/water seperator. It is mounted outside the frame, before the two factory filters.
not a bad idea. simple pull of a handle during preflight and any water is dumped.
as for the trucks, ford says filters at 15K. i do mine at 10K.
#153
03-18-2012, 10:40 AM
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. Just got off the phone with my JD service tech. They have two 6.7 Ford trucks with tool boxes/small cranes. . They changed fuel suppliers. I will definitely get more information Monday.
That water separator is mounted to an 8530 and my tech thinks it wouldn't help my Ford.
That water separator is mounted to an 8530 and my tech thinks it wouldn't help my Ford.
Last edited by farmerdave; 03-18-2012 at 05:16 PM. Reason: i need more info/proof before posting
#154
03-18-2012, 10:44 AM
Attachments, water separator, severe-duty
The severe-duty water separator factory-installed option or field-installed kit is available for locations where fuel quality can at times be in question. This kit will extend service intervals and help protect the tractor fuel system from damage if the fuel contains more water than the base filtering equipment can handle on a continual basis.
The 60 micron constructed of stainless-steel filter element must be backflushed whenever the bowl is half full of water. The filter can be backflushed up to five times before the filter must be removed and cleaned. Filter element must be replaced when light is no longer visible through the filter. The replacement interval will vary depending on fuel quality.
The severe-duty water separator factory-installed option or field-installed kit is available for locations where fuel quality can at times be in question. This kit will extend service intervals and help protect the tractor fuel system from damage if the fuel contains more water than the base filtering equipment can handle on a continual basis.
The 60 micron constructed of stainless-steel filter element must be backflushed whenever the bowl is half full of water. The filter can be backflushed up to five times before the filter must be removed and cleaned. Filter element must be replaced when light is no longer visible through the filter. The replacement interval will vary depending on fuel quality.
#156
03-18-2012, 11:09 AM
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#157
03-18-2012, 03:03 PM
If a large quantity of water gets through the DFCM and destroys the HPFP annd the owner did nothing to mitigate the damage potential, I would agree that Ford has no reason to warranty the HPFP...but that much water can likely be assigned a culpable party.
The discussion needs to include the failures of the pumps due to other causes...not just water. The real concern is that it does not take much of anything to destroy the HPF system.But it takes a bunch of money to fix it.
Regards
#158
03-19-2012, 10:05 AM
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#159
03-19-2012, 12:45 PM
Been away for a while... I see a lot of discussion has taken place here. Many great ideas for reducing the risk of a failure, but only 1 idea for containing the damage. Like Parkland, I am looking at this more from the perspective that like all mechanical things, the pump will fail, it's just a question of when. What I don't like is the >$10k bill for when that failure occurs because of all the collateral damage.
It seems like a hundred ideas have been presented to lower the risk of a failure, from inspecting the fuel before it is even put into the tank, to an independent water separation system. The graph of MTBF vs fuel lubricity says a LOT. Maybe it makes sense to put in more PM-22A than is recommended. But yes, there have been a lot of GREAT ideas in this thread on how to improve the fuel quality before it gets to the pump. Thank you!
I sent an email to Norman Filters about their 30k filter. I asked them if there is any way they can guarantee to stop fuel flow when the filter becomes clogged. Here is their response:
"At this point we do not have a method to prevent the element from collapse above 4500 PSI delta-p. Another way to look at it is the fluid flow will virtually stop before the 4500 differential is reached. The injectors will be starved for fuel and not operate as the element becomes clogged over time."
So apparantly the filter can handle 4500psi delta-p, not 100psi as was previously mentioned. This is very impressive for a filter!
I agree with Norman on their point, but there is a problem. If you're driving down the road at 75MPH when the pump fails and the filter fills up with metal fragments, yes the injectors will become starved for fuel at the same time the pump is failing, but the engine is still "motoring" due to the vehicle's momentum, and may continue for quite some time before coming to a stop. The filter must withstand this pressure without collapse.
It would be nice to see a pump volume vs. pressure output curve during a failure, but someone would have to sacrifice a pump to do that! I'll guess that the pressure drops off very quickly as the pump begins to fail, and once it gets into a state such a rickatc's, it probably could no longer put out more than 1000psi, but how long does it take to get to that point?
Carl
It seems like a hundred ideas have been presented to lower the risk of a failure, from inspecting the fuel before it is even put into the tank, to an independent water separation system. The graph of MTBF vs fuel lubricity says a LOT. Maybe it makes sense to put in more PM-22A than is recommended. But yes, there have been a lot of GREAT ideas in this thread on how to improve the fuel quality before it gets to the pump. Thank you!
I sent an email to Norman Filters about their 30k filter. I asked them if there is any way they can guarantee to stop fuel flow when the filter becomes clogged. Here is their response:
"At this point we do not have a method to prevent the element from collapse above 4500 PSI delta-p. Another way to look at it is the fluid flow will virtually stop before the 4500 differential is reached. The injectors will be starved for fuel and not operate as the element becomes clogged over time."
So apparantly the filter can handle 4500psi delta-p, not 100psi as was previously mentioned. This is very impressive for a filter!
I agree with Norman on their point, but there is a problem. If you're driving down the road at 75MPH when the pump fails and the filter fills up with metal fragments, yes the injectors will become starved for fuel at the same time the pump is failing, but the engine is still "motoring" due to the vehicle's momentum, and may continue for quite some time before coming to a stop. The filter must withstand this pressure without collapse.
It would be nice to see a pump volume vs. pressure output curve during a failure, but someone would have to sacrifice a pump to do that! I'll guess that the pressure drops off very quickly as the pump begins to fail, and once it gets into a state such a rickatc's, it probably could no longer put out more than 1000psi, but how long does it take to get to that point?
Carl
#160
03-19-2012, 01:01 PM
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Been away for a while... I see a lot of discussion has taken place here. Many great ideas for reducing the risk of a failure, but only 1 idea for containing the damage. Like Parkland, I am looking at this more from the perspective that like all mechanical things, the pump will fail, it's just a question of when. What I don't like is the >$10k bill for when that failure occurs because of all the collateral damage.
It seems like a hundred ideas have been presented to lower the risk of a failure, from inspecting the fuel before it is even put into the tank, to an independent water separation system. The graph of MTBF vs fuel lubricity says a LOT. Maybe it makes sense to put in more PM-22A than is recommended, as it appears that lower scar ratings. But yes, there have been a lot of GREAT ideas in this thread on how to improve the fuel quality before it gets to the pump. Thank you!
I sent an email to Norman Filters about their 30k filter. I asked them if there is any way they can guarantee to stop fuel flow when the filter becomes clogged. Here is their response:
"At this point we do not have a method to prevent the element from collapse above 4500 PSI delta-p. Another way to look at it is the fluid flow will virtually stop before the 4500 differential is reached. The injectors will be starved for fuel and not operate as the element becomes clogged over time."
So apparantly the filter can handle 4500psi delta-p, not 100psi as was previously mentioned. This is very impressive for a filter!
I agree with Norman on their point, but there is a problem. If you're driving down the road at 75MPH when the pump fails and the filter fills up with metal fragments, yes the injectors will become starved for fuel at the same time the pump is failing, but the engine is still "motoring" due to the vehicle's momentum, and may continue for quite some time before coming to a stop. The filter must withstand this pressure without collapse.
It would be nice to see a pump volume vs. pressure output curve during a failure, but someone would have to sacrifice a pump to do that! I'll guess that the pressure drops off very quickly as the pump begins to fail, and once it gets into a state such a rickatc's, it probably could no longer put out more than 1000psi, but how long does it take to get to that point?
Carl
It seems like a hundred ideas have been presented to lower the risk of a failure, from inspecting the fuel before it is even put into the tank, to an independent water separation system. The graph of MTBF vs fuel lubricity says a LOT. Maybe it makes sense to put in more PM-22A than is recommended, as it appears that lower scar ratings. But yes, there have been a lot of GREAT ideas in this thread on how to improve the fuel quality before it gets to the pump. Thank you!
I sent an email to Norman Filters about their 30k filter. I asked them if there is any way they can guarantee to stop fuel flow when the filter becomes clogged. Here is their response:
"At this point we do not have a method to prevent the element from collapse above 4500 PSI delta-p. Another way to look at it is the fluid flow will virtually stop before the 4500 differential is reached. The injectors will be starved for fuel and not operate as the element becomes clogged over time."
So apparantly the filter can handle 4500psi delta-p, not 100psi as was previously mentioned. This is very impressive for a filter!
I agree with Norman on their point, but there is a problem. If you're driving down the road at 75MPH when the pump fails and the filter fills up with metal fragments, yes the injectors will become starved for fuel at the same time the pump is failing, but the engine is still "motoring" due to the vehicle's momentum, and may continue for quite some time before coming to a stop. The filter must withstand this pressure without collapse.
It would be nice to see a pump volume vs. pressure output curve during a failure, but someone would have to sacrifice a pump to do that! I'll guess that the pressure drops off very quickly as the pump begins to fail, and once it gets into a state such a rickatc's, it probably could no longer put out more than 1000psi, but how long does it take to get to that point?
Carl
how about adding an electrical circuit to the filter. A control box with a built in "kill" circuit to tie the trucks ignition to, 2 pressure switches and a dump valve to a vented canister.
when the circuit senses a pressure differential (user set) between the incomming and outgoing side of the filter, the circuit activates a built in "kill" circuit and opens the dump valve, thus releaving any pressure to the filter. The canister would not have to be much bigger than about 1 gallon I would think.....whatever the pump is putting out for 30 seconds or so for the engine to die......and since it is vented....if it did fill up - it would just leak some fuel out....big deal..
#161
03-19-2012, 05:31 PM
I looked into it in depth, the problem is that 30,000psi is way above what 99% of available off the shelf items.
One interesting idea, is to find a special metal detecting circuit, and put the sensor on the lines after the HPFP. Such sensors exist, and can sense types of metal right through other metal. I haven't found any information regarding price, so i'm assuming that would be the problem.
One interesting idea, is to find a special metal detecting circuit, and put the sensor on the lines after the HPFP. Such sensors exist, and can sense types of metal right through other metal. I haven't found any information regarding price, so i'm assuming that would be the problem.
#162
03-19-2012, 07:13 PM
#163
03-19-2012, 09:14 PM
And the more I think of it, this might really be the way to go, possibly being able to install it without voiding warranty even.
#164
03-30-2012, 12:06 PM
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#165
03-30-2012, 01:06 PM
Ford should have a "heavy duty fuel package" as an option, for guys that don't treat their trucks like a highway princess.
It seems a real issue here might be the water detection on these trucks, maybe it just needs to be a lot more sensitive.