Towing with chip and without gauges
#31
02-17-2012, 05:05 PM
In the tow mode the tuner will slow/delay the shifts for a Higher RPMs rate to pull your load as you get your speed up. Once you get to 3rd gear with your Over Drive off you engine RPMs and engine temps and EGT temps are going to go higher. You should almost never drive over 65MPH with your Over Drive off as you will burn up your something when pulling a load (imho).....
"I" leave "MY" OverDrive 'ON' because I do not want my engine screaming at 2,300 RPMs at 65MPH in 3rd gear (for hundreds of miles) but to drive smoothly at 2,000 RPMs at 65-70 MPH in 4th gear. With your load moving you do not need the higher RPMs screaming at a higher gear (3rd). Unless (imho) you are going up and down steep hills and valleys.
The 7.3 is designed to turn RPM's, its not a I-6 motor, they love 2400-2700 RPM's and that is infact the lowest stress point on the motor. Low end TQ and HP blows motors, puts the most stress on the motor period.
This is how I drive my truck and this is how I treat my truck and what you do with yours is up to you. It seems to me, but I could be wrong and will mostly will be told so, that the higher the RPMs for an exstended amount of time the higher the Exhaust Temps and there by...engine problems. imho
Peace
Peace
Now pull the same hill and lock out your OD... Same hill, same speed... Your EGT's will be about 800-900...
If need be I will go find a mountian road around here and video it myself.
#32
02-17-2012, 05:15 PM
Cargo Master
EGT's GO DOWN when you gear up... NOT up. Lugging up hills RAISES EGT's.
Blessings
Have a great weekend.
#33
02-17-2012, 08:16 PM
You have an egt gauge right? Go for a drive tonight and find a nice little hill. Set your cruise to 50-55mph and leave OD on... Your EGT's will be right at about 1000-1100...
Now pull the same hill and lock out your OD... Same hill, same speed... Your EGT's will be about 800-900...
If need be I will go find a mountian road around here and video it myself.
Now pull the same hill and lock out your OD... Same hill, same speed... Your EGT's will be about 800-900...
If need be I will go find a mountian road around here and video it myself.
#34
02-17-2012, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Parts Jimmy
Changes fuel, timing, and boost pressures.
#36
02-17-2012, 09:51 PM
#37
02-17-2012, 10:20 PM
#38
02-18-2012, 07:47 AM
There must be something wrong with my transmission, because when I pull a load in OD and start up a hill, my darn trans will down shift to 3 gear.
I will pull a load up hill with the EGT at 1100 all day long.
I don't have any horses right now, but I will get me a big stick and go beat the neighbors horse. If I don't come back on here, then you know the darn horse wasn't dead already.
I will pull a load up hill with the EGT at 1100 all day long.
I don't have any horses right now, but I will get me a big stick and go beat the neighbors horse. If I don't come back on here, then you know the darn horse wasn't dead already.
#39
02-18-2012, 08:49 AM
Wow... what a **** storm!
This was your answer to more power by changing boost pressure, timing, and fuel. I'm new to diesels, but I'm not new to motors. The stock tune can retard the timing by as much as 138 degrees - and you say just add more fuel to get more go? Don't boost the air, just give it more fuel? With all due respect to you as a person, I will not read your opinions on tuning in the future.
- My Pyro is on the manifold, not post-turbo.
- I've had my EGTs peak while passing at high RPMs on a steep hill while empty. OD brought the EGTs down.
- Lugging also brings the EGTs up. And taking it out of OD brings the EGTs down.
- Chipping does enable the 7.3 to hurt itself - hence the need for "protection" (gauges). It gives the driver the feedback needed to do the right thing if the chip doesn't do it automatically.
#40
02-18-2012, 09:11 AM
You're a funny guy. I like that about you.
I tell you what......
If anybody else that writes tuning for these trucks has the intestinal fortitude to post in here about what SINGLE MAP they use to make the biggest difference in power output, it would really clear things up between you and me, Tugly.
In addition, take into account "10K Mod" style devices. They make a big difference in power and boost......but all they do is add fuel. Hmmmmm.
Oh, and if I were to show you that there is NOTHING in the tuning that independently changes boost pressure in regard to load (short of effectively disconnecting the wastegate solenoid in the tuning), would you still be my friend?
Do you want to know how much or how little SOI can be commanded?
Minimum: -15 degrees.
Maximum: 135 degrees.
So your thought of the stock tuning being able to "retard" 138 degrees is a little off.
Relatively, stock is the ZERO point. Most aftermarket calibrations will only add a few degrees to that.
#42
02-18-2012, 10:28 AM
Differences in tuning in older Superchips 1705 programmer on "Tow Safe"; the brand of programming in question by the OP but not the actual programmer. Differences from stock are in bold. I'm sure a few things have changed by now, but now there's no question that there is more power by fuel as anyone who has driven a vehicle with an old Superchips 1705 on "Tow Safe" has noticed a definite increase in power over stock.
- "Exhaust Backpressure Torque Loss" effects transmission shift firmness.
- "Desired Boost Pressure" is an inferred map that lists desired boost dependent on IPR flow rate and RPM. It has no effect on how much boost is actually created.
- "Exhaust Backpressure Torque Loss" effects transmission shift firmness.
- "Desired Boost Pressure" is an inferred map that lists desired boost dependent on IPR flow rate and RPM. It has no effect on how much boost is actually created.
#43
02-19-2012, 07:32 AM
You're a funny guy. I like that about you.
I tell you what......
If anybody else that writes tuning for these trucks has the intestinal fortitude to post in here about what SINGLE MAP they use to make the biggest difference in power output, it would really clear things up between you and me, Tugly.
In addition, take into account "10K Mod" style devices. They make a big difference in power and boost......but all they do is add fuel. Hmmmmm.
Oh, and if I were to show you that there is NOTHING in the tuning that independently changes boost pressure in regard to load (short of effectively disconnecting the wastegate solenoid in the tuning), would you still be my friend?
Do you want to know how much or how little SOI can be commanded?
Minimum: -15 degrees.
Maximum: 135 degrees.
So your thought of the stock tuning being able to "retard" 138 degrees is a little off.
Relatively, stock is the ZERO point. Most aftermarket calibrations will only add a few degrees to that.
I tell you what......
If anybody else that writes tuning for these trucks has the intestinal fortitude to post in here about what SINGLE MAP they use to make the biggest difference in power output, it would really clear things up between you and me, Tugly.
In addition, take into account "10K Mod" style devices. They make a big difference in power and boost......but all they do is add fuel. Hmmmmm.
Oh, and if I were to show you that there is NOTHING in the tuning that independently changes boost pressure in regard to load (short of effectively disconnecting the wastegate solenoid in the tuning), would you still be my friend?
Do you want to know how much or how little SOI can be commanded?
Minimum: -15 degrees.
Maximum: 135 degrees.
So your thought of the stock tuning being able to "retard" 138 degrees is a little off.
Relatively, stock is the ZERO point. Most aftermarket calibrations will only add a few degrees to that.
nlemerise- no flamin' goin' on hereabouts... it's cool.
#44
02-19-2012, 09:33 AM
1. If there is more to making power than adding fuel, then why do tuners (the people AND the products) hit a power wall at 290-320 HP on stock injectors?
2. Why does it take "larger" injectors to get above that number all else being equal?
3. What controls air flow through a diesel engine? Specifically a 7.3L. I don't care about the "throttle plates" on newer diesels to make the EGR system work better. They have nothing to do with air control in any other capacity.
4. Going back to the last question, why do you think EGT goes down when you're not lugging the engine up a grade in 4th gear?
5. Why do EGTs become such a huge issue when dealing with higher-than-stock power levels (even 40-60 HP additional) when all else on the truck is the same?
6. Why do "larger", less restrictive turbine housings make the same or more power on less boost? Why do they become a problem at low engine RPM while towing?
Originally Posted by Tugly
Other than that, I have no problem with you at all. In fact, I plan to send you reps for your civility in this. I am flattered by your opinion of my posting style and I find value in the rest of the information you provide.
I'll quit antagonizing you now. We don't have to agree all the time!
To everyone else, if you care to answer the questions, answer them all. Don't just hit one or two.
#45
02-19-2012, 04:02 PM
I ask ANYONE:
1. If there is more to making power than adding fuel, then why do tuners (the people AND the products) hit a power wall at 290-320 HP on stock injectors?
As you know, they hit a wall with either needing more fuel - or better atomization of the same fuel quantity can improve things as well. Anybody who has made a potato cannon knows just adding more fuel doesn't always get the job done - sometimes it just burns more fuel or makes it less powerful. Audiences of Mythbusters can see there is a sweet spot for fuel/air mixture. Going higher or lower on either side of the sweet spot diminishes the power and efficiency - sometimes to the point of no boom.
2. Why does it take "larger" injectors to get above that number all else being equal?
I'm not 100% sure how well this works without bringing up the fuel pump volume for the same pressure/atomization as the smaller injectors, plus more air to keep that aforementioned fuel/air mixture. There may be a small gain in power, but the efficiency will likely tank. Add bigger injectors with higher fuel pressure/volume for proper atomization and enough air to hit the sweet spot for mixture and you will undoubtedly stretch the 7.3's legs.
3. What controls air flow through a diesel engine? Specifically a 7.3L. I don't care about the "throttle plates" on newer diesels to make the EGR system work better. They have nothing to do with air control in any other capacity.
Turbo. Non-turbo diesels relied on the vacuum of the downstroke and that was nowhere near enough air. Remember how old diesel trucks/buses used to smoke and stink something fierce? They still do in poor countries where they don't have modern turbodiesels. Turbo now provides plenty of air. So much so that the trubos frequently provide more than needed and they get regulated down. It's always good engineering practice to make things operate close to 75% of capacity and leave some headroom for the X-factor: A dirty air filter allows less air in, but the 7.3 can compensate by using more of the turbo reserve capacity (with a slight drop in fuel economy). Only those pushing the limits would notice the performance drop with a mildly dirty air filter.
4. Going back to the last question, why do you think EGT goes down when you're not lugging the engine up a grade in 4th gear?
Lugging is adding more fuel in one cycle and forcing that fuel to do the grunt work (elevated compression). Anybody with a 10-speed bicycle that has ridden up a hill knows they can sometimes make the hill in higher gear, but it takes a lot of force (elevated compression). It also tires the rider quickly and makes them overheat. Reduce the gearing and you have to move faster, but with greatly reduced force (reduced compression). Dropping one gear on any internal combustion engine will use less fuel per cycle, raise the RPMs and lower the compression needed to do the work. Compression flat makes heat, and enough compression can make too much of it. Allowing more intake air to pass through the engine at higher RPMs can aid in the cooling process.
5. Why do EGTs become such a huge issue when dealing with higher-than-stock power levels (even 40-60 HP additional) when all else on the truck is the same?
The stock tune delays fuel as much as the 135 degrees that you and I were dancing around. Imagine adding fuel that late and you can well imagine some wimpy compression. Any delay after TDC reduces compression. Fuel at or before TDC really peaks out the compression and there is your heat. The stock tune was engineered to give mom, dad, grandma, the family teen and any other shmoe a reliable, clean, safe, smoothe, and relatively quiet ride without risking damage to the truck no matter how they drove it. Truck makers wouldn't be able to sell diesels to John Q. Public if every diesel owner had to take a diesel care class before they were allowed behind the wheel. If Ford (or any other diesel maker) unleashed the monster within and threw a set of keys at anybody with the green, most people would never make it past the warranty period. The Powerstrokes we enjoy would have such a negative rap, that we wouldn't have bought them to begin with. How many people here have a valet mode in at least one of their modern vehicles? Why? Look again at the title of this thread. We all agree that once we tune, we need some gauges. Does that protect the vehicle? "Hey - I gotta gauge and the truck won't break now!" It just lets us know when we're exceeding the limits of the drive/powertrain. The stock chip never would have let us get that far.
6. Why do "larger", less restrictive turbine housings make the same or more power on less boost? Why do they become a problem at low engine RPM while towing?
I have a 12V tire inflator that I would never use for blowing up a four-man raft (pressure, no volume). I have a 12V raft inflator that would just whine at a tire, but it rocks with the raft (volume, no pressure). Towing wants more pressure, racing wants more volume.
To everyone else, if you care to answer the questions, answer them all. Don't just hit one or two.
1. If there is more to making power than adding fuel, then why do tuners (the people AND the products) hit a power wall at 290-320 HP on stock injectors?
As you know, they hit a wall with either needing more fuel - or better atomization of the same fuel quantity can improve things as well. Anybody who has made a potato cannon knows just adding more fuel doesn't always get the job done - sometimes it just burns more fuel or makes it less powerful. Audiences of Mythbusters can see there is a sweet spot for fuel/air mixture. Going higher or lower on either side of the sweet spot diminishes the power and efficiency - sometimes to the point of no boom.
2. Why does it take "larger" injectors to get above that number all else being equal?
I'm not 100% sure how well this works without bringing up the fuel pump volume for the same pressure/atomization as the smaller injectors, plus more air to keep that aforementioned fuel/air mixture. There may be a small gain in power, but the efficiency will likely tank. Add bigger injectors with higher fuel pressure/volume for proper atomization and enough air to hit the sweet spot for mixture and you will undoubtedly stretch the 7.3's legs.
3. What controls air flow through a diesel engine? Specifically a 7.3L. I don't care about the "throttle plates" on newer diesels to make the EGR system work better. They have nothing to do with air control in any other capacity.
Turbo. Non-turbo diesels relied on the vacuum of the downstroke and that was nowhere near enough air. Remember how old diesel trucks/buses used to smoke and stink something fierce? They still do in poor countries where they don't have modern turbodiesels. Turbo now provides plenty of air. So much so that the trubos frequently provide more than needed and they get regulated down. It's always good engineering practice to make things operate close to 75% of capacity and leave some headroom for the X-factor: A dirty air filter allows less air in, but the 7.3 can compensate by using more of the turbo reserve capacity (with a slight drop in fuel economy). Only those pushing the limits would notice the performance drop with a mildly dirty air filter.
4. Going back to the last question, why do you think EGT goes down when you're not lugging the engine up a grade in 4th gear?
Lugging is adding more fuel in one cycle and forcing that fuel to do the grunt work (elevated compression). Anybody with a 10-speed bicycle that has ridden up a hill knows they can sometimes make the hill in higher gear, but it takes a lot of force (elevated compression). It also tires the rider quickly and makes them overheat. Reduce the gearing and you have to move faster, but with greatly reduced force (reduced compression). Dropping one gear on any internal combustion engine will use less fuel per cycle, raise the RPMs and lower the compression needed to do the work. Compression flat makes heat, and enough compression can make too much of it. Allowing more intake air to pass through the engine at higher RPMs can aid in the cooling process.
5. Why do EGTs become such a huge issue when dealing with higher-than-stock power levels (even 40-60 HP additional) when all else on the truck is the same?
The stock tune delays fuel as much as the 135 degrees that you and I were dancing around. Imagine adding fuel that late and you can well imagine some wimpy compression. Any delay after TDC reduces compression. Fuel at or before TDC really peaks out the compression and there is your heat. The stock tune was engineered to give mom, dad, grandma, the family teen and any other shmoe a reliable, clean, safe, smoothe, and relatively quiet ride without risking damage to the truck no matter how they drove it. Truck makers wouldn't be able to sell diesels to John Q. Public if every diesel owner had to take a diesel care class before they were allowed behind the wheel. If Ford (or any other diesel maker) unleashed the monster within and threw a set of keys at anybody with the green, most people would never make it past the warranty period. The Powerstrokes we enjoy would have such a negative rap, that we wouldn't have bought them to begin with. How many people here have a valet mode in at least one of their modern vehicles? Why? Look again at the title of this thread. We all agree that once we tune, we need some gauges. Does that protect the vehicle? "Hey - I gotta gauge and the truck won't break now!" It just lets us know when we're exceeding the limits of the drive/powertrain. The stock chip never would have let us get that far.
6. Why do "larger", less restrictive turbine housings make the same or more power on less boost? Why do they become a problem at low engine RPM while towing?
I have a 12V tire inflator that I would never use for blowing up a four-man raft (pressure, no volume). I have a 12V raft inflator that would just whine at a tire, but it rocks with the raft (volume, no pressure). Towing wants more pressure, racing wants more volume.
To everyone else, if you care to answer the questions, answer them all. Don't just hit one or two.