I was never laughed at in the FE or any other forum. A 428 is no more an FT engine than a 240 I-6 is. Get a grip!

 

In regards to the propane engine my friend had, there is a major reason that a 428 was used that did not occur to me yesterday. Compression. If you check around, you will find that commercial propane mandates a compression ratio somewhere around 11:1 to be most efficient. (Of course, there are different grades that go higher, but let's think 1970's cheap propane on a farm). The CJ's nominal rating from Ford was 10.65. The ratings of the FT engines were what, 8:1 or less. Your 361/391 would, in fact, not run worth a darn on propane.

So then there's the heads. Ford would not have used CJ heads on such an engine. The ticket would have been small port, small valve castings for low rpm efficiency. FT heads, and I'll give you a second reason why. The irrigation pump mounts directly to the short bell housing. FE heads would have used rear exiting exhaust manifolds which may have interfered with the operation or service of the pump once some kind of tubing/muffler was attached. The center exit FT manifolds would have been the ticket. Also, those exhausts do not play nicely with typical engine mounts that bolt to the sides of the block. Hence the use of the FT iron front cover to mount the engine up front instead. (As an aside, I know that many FE's have been mounted into street rods and other custom applications using an FT cover onto a forward crossmember).

To me, the package makes sense. Propane makes for a very long-lived engine. After 30 years in service, this 428 was so clean that no overbore was needed. A hone for new rings and the original pistons were put back in with their 13/32 CJ rods.

The engine for sale is not on propane now, as it uses a different type of fuel mixer than the typical Holley or Autolite. It "may" have been on propane at one time, but who knows. The same intake manifold can be used for either. As for determining the actual cubic inches, the dowel in the spark plug hole works. Once the engine is divorced from the trans, the rear can be checked for the CX or similar sand scratch as well as the existence of a 28 oz. counterweight on the flexplate.

Again, the reason I brought all this up was because it was being stated that no such animal existed, and I knew otherwise. Contrary to public opinion, not everybody that sells on Craigslist is a clueless yokel. And, thanks for the ones that are, because I've gotten some smoking deals on parts for them "dinosaur" FE engines.

draggin the line

 

I guess you don't read the FE forum, then.

 

Jeez, I work on my truck for the weekend, and I come back to this ...

Don't you all get your panties in a wad...

Who the heck knows what some hydro-pump reseller did ... slapped a pair of FT heads and intake onto a 428?

Post the casting numbers when you get them.

 

Double post, sorry.

 

As Krewat sorta said "what the hey!"
N.D. is apparently a stickler for exactness in the identification and description of the information he is putting out there. It is the nature of the work he did for some length of time. The wrong numbers or description gets the wrong part(s) and an irate customer and, of course, it is never the customer that is wrong.
There is a lot of stuff that was adapted or modified and sold for special applications by the resellers like equipment dealers. Many times the mods were at the buyers request and sometimes these mods were evaluated and approved by Ford Engineering. That approval or modification might never be listed in a manual or parts listing or put into production. Ford probably has a record of it somewhere.
Those that laugh at a person because they actually know what they are talking about because of their training or experience are only revealing their own ignorance when they put their comments in any forum or on the internet. Persons with knowledge will forever discount anything those people say from that point on.
The nice thing about the web is that we can exchange information freely, the bad thing is that idiots can spew filth and garbage as well as misinformation just as freely. That is our right as Americans.
Thank you N.D. for sharing your experience and knowledge with us here.

 

I understand that nobody is right all the time. However, the problem is that some people don't realize that their knowledge or experience actually does have limits, and THEY are the ones that wind up discounting information provided by others. Instead, why don't they just acknowledge that other possibilities exist, rather than proclaiming without doubt that that the info is false. Cuts both way, you know.

You can go on defending ND and the others, but let me remind you of the Ram Air Cobra Jet thread in here a couple years ago or so. Despite me providing ample evidence supporting factual history, Dummy staunchly insisted that Ram Air was not available on '68 Cobra Jet Mustangs because his precious books did not show it. Never mind the fact that ALL of them were Ram Air that year. Nope, not according to Dummy.

I subsequently posted a link to that thread in the FE forum, where there are several members who own those cars. Not only did they open fire on ND for his foolishness, many other guys came out of the woodwork with similar stories about his pig-headed attitude. This is not a case of him getting "wrong" numbers from anybody or any BS like that. This is the refusal to believe he (and his books) can be mistaken. Using your analogy of association, those who blindly defend ND, Bear, and those like them will likewise suffer in the credibility department.

As far as the "428 FT" goes, as I said I don't know what Ford called those engines back then, and I don't care. And, it's true that Ford's actual involvement may have been secondary. Could be a third party custom build, or it could have been a combo requisitioned by the Ford Tractor Division, or whatever it was called that supplied goods to the farm lands. Doesn't matter. What does matter is that 428's with FT heads did/do exist in enough numbers to support the Idaho seller's claim that such a combo was seen in industrial usage. That is all that should concern a prospective buyer, so quit making excuses why it just cannot be.

Never say never. That wisdom will cover your ***, so learn it.

draggin' the line

 

One shining example of something you will NEVER find Ford had anything to do with:

V10's doing industrial work.

Whatever lurks inside here: Buy 2001 Onan Ford V10 Generator - 85kw, 60hz, 480v, 1800rpm at IMPCorporation.com

One of these days, someone will find one of these engines and try to put it in a truck. And if ND is still around, he'll fire off a "that doesn't exist" when someone asks about the natural gas mixer

Or, they actually did use a natural-gas setup from Ford (because, lo-and-behold, they did exist as bi-fuel setups).

 

Oh, and I wonder if the heads on that 428 have a "J" instead of an "A" or "T"

 

Hmm. I wonder if one of those V10's will get me a half million rpm's out of my Dremel.

Ironically, during the phone discussion I had yesterday with my friend that had the propane FT 428 (notice I didn't call it a 428FT), he mentioned that the winery replaced all the FE's with V10's. Of course, the guy that bought these from the winery told Kurt, who told me, and now I'm telling you, so according to Bear that couldn't possibly be the truth. Nor is anything in history books over 100 years old the truth, because nobody alive today can verify any of the facts therein.

 

Don't know about "that" 428, but I can move some stuff aside and see what the propane 428 had on it. Yes, I know about J prefixes.

That reminds me of another can of worms I have. Let's theorize how many 427's are covered in sediment in Vietnam.

 

Probably more than a few, Charlie is likely using them in pulls or mud buggies by now, if they still live. I wonder why all the stuff we left there has not shown up in the used vehicles and parts markets???
I'd buy a Jeep or ???

 

The seller emailed me back. He says its currently installed in a Thiokol 2100C snowcat He says it runs on gasoline and he has the original invoice from Ford to Thiokol. He said he will have to look for casting numbers, hopefully he will get back to me later today and we can put this whole thread to rest. I never imagined this simple question would spawn so much controversy. I'm almost sorry I asked in the first place.

 

Absolutely no reason to be sorry. This is how we learn. Well, some of us, anyway, learned about irrigation 428's, and now we learn that Ford sold FE's to a major defense contractor which has Snowcats on its Wikipedia page. Hoodathunkit?

I'd love to know about the invoice. If that engine was sold directly by Ford, and it does turn out to be a 428 with FT heads, then we have a verified factory 428FT! Oh yeah, I say. Don't forget to get the invoice date!

 

He said the invoice doesnt really say much besides the serial number. Again, I'm not in the market for it and don't want to drive out of state just for curiosities sake. Don't know how many questions this guy will want to answer seeing as I'm not gonna buy it.