It is hard to separate out the hype from the real advantage, if any, in my opinion.

You can already buy diesel motorhomes from at least one manufacturer (or at least could, I am not sure it caught on) as a hybrid, all 38 feet of it. I drove it a couple of years ago when it was introduced and talked with the engineering staff. I came away with the thought hybrids and very large vehicles may not be the best combination, at least with current technology. You could actually drive on electric power only up to about 2 or 3 miles per hour, if I recall correctly. Then the diesel kicked in. It did have the standard hybrid features, regenerative braking, etc.

It also had computer controlled dual clutches rather than a standard automatic and they really gave a different feel accelerating as in considerable lag time.

Don't know where it will all go,

Steve

 

But a "plug-in" Prius is a much different thing.

And the "plug-in" Superduty would also be a much different thing.

I don't understand why no one gets this basic idea: In stop-and-go city driving, a plug-in hybrid truck makes a LOT of sense.

It doesn't make sense pulling 15K lbs trailer over a mountain pass. And in most cases, I think most people are thinking about their own typical usage.

But in delivery, utility, and other "city" type driving, a plug-in hybrid would be a big WIN.

 

If they can make it hold enough energy to drive for a while. It will use a whole lot of power to move an 8,000 lb vehicle.....

 

I agree w/ you that politics is the root cause...and you're right we're probably treading on thin ice here, so I'll suffice it to say that where do you think the gov't gets their ideas from? Hint, it's not you and I. I know the gov't seems like one big omnipotent being but it is run by people, and the ones in those departments in particualar tend to be on the green side. Couple that w/ pressure from the sierra club and similar groups and it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Ford has been working with the Electric Power Research Institute, Eaton Corporation, Azure Dynamics, and others to develop and produce plug-in electric hybrid vehicles (PHEV). What we are seeing by this press release is the latest example of this coming to market.

Normally, vehicles using a hybrid electric drive trains do not have to be plugged-in for recharging, the Toyota Prius for example. However, even hybrids that only use regenerative braking for energy capture need a place to store that energy. They use batteries. The plug-in option allows the batteries to store more energy than can be produced by the regenerative braking alone.

Here is my guess at what is happening. They are integrating parallel hybrid technology with a plug-in option into the Super Duty cab and chassis platform. In other words, take a F550 with a 6.7L diesel or 6.8L V10 and add….

1. Integrated Starter/Generator (ISG) - Used to start the engine and to generate power.
2. Clutched FEAD - Clutch at crank shaft opens when engine off & ISG then spins the disconnected Front Engine Accessory Drive system (power steering/brake pump, water pump, alternator & A/C compressor).
3. Vehicle Control Unit - Controls all hybrid components and coordinates their operation with the Ford systems (e.g. start/stop).
4. ISG motor controller, Converts DC from the battery to 3 phase AC for the ISG motor. Controls the speed and torque of the ISG motor.
5. Traction motor controller - Converts DC from the battery to 3 phase AC for the traction motor. Controls the speed and torque of the traction motor.
6. Traction Motor - Converts electrical energy to wheel torque in order to propel the vehicle. Speed & torque outputs are based on accelerator input as well as vehicle operating conditions.
7. Energy storage system - high voltage Li-ion battery pack.
8. 120V and/or 240V charging systems.

The above is only a partial list. This projection is based on their Balance hybrid system on the E450 (1-7) and my speculation (#8). Added weight would be approximately 1500 lbs.

First, the added 1500 lbs is dead weight for an on the highway duty cycle vehicle. Second, if the duty cycle of you vehicle is mostly short-range, start-and-stop driving and/or requires a lot of engine at idle time the hybrid system would be of benefit. The second duty cycle is the market they are going after (e.g. medium duty repair or bucket trucks, delivery trucks including ones with refrigeration systems). The 3 phase AC could be used to operate tools, drive hydraulics, run refrigeration units even when the engine is off. The parallel hybrid system would provide a significant benefit in this market but not the on highway market.

Look at Azure’s current customer base and go to Eaton Corporations site and see what they are doing. The market is there.

 

And when it uses regenerative braking to stop, it will MAKE a lot of power too... which goes right back into the batteries.

It'll be interesting, for sure, to see what it does in the "real world". And it's really only a pilot project, not a real production vehicle. Yet.

 

There's been lots of research into flywheels in the last 20+ years or so. Not your grandpa's flywheels, these are turning 30k+ RPM in a vacuum on magnetic bearings. Power is put in and taken out electrically.

As far as stationary applications, I think they are not unusual. I believe the main applications are for uninterruptible power supplies (UPS). Utilities have talked about using them for stabilizing loads around the grid.

As far as mobile applications, the main challenges are containing the energy in the result of a crash, and of course dealing with the forces caused by gyroscopic precession. I think they deal with the precession problem by using multiple flywheels, spinning in opposite directions.

Sounds far-fetched, maybe, but I do believe they are more efficient than batteries, and significantly lighter. I also seem to recall they are actually being used in buses somewhere. Don't have time to do the research right now, but will look at it later. Meanwhile here's a Wikipedia link:

Flywheel energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff...

 

I did some work for Honeywell satellite sys. Several years ago and the flywheel concept is used for attitude adjustment in many satellites due to it's super efficient design! If this technology could eventually be brought into automotive I'm doubghtful due to the preciscion of assembly required, and cost of materials involved. But the concepts are so cool!
Jim...& fat Monty

 

This is an interesting idea. Flywheels are very efficient and can have a longer lifespan than batteries. Yet, I believe when you compare weight energy density and volume energy density lithium ion batteries are both lighter and smaller than currently available flywheels. Additionally, flywheels typically require more energy to keep spinning than the float charge required for the batteries.

Fédération Internationale de l'Automobiledoes allow the use continuously variable transmission (CVT) in Formula One. CVTs recover energy from the drive train during braking and store it in a flywheel. This is for short burst of power during acceleration. Short duration energy delivery is the niche market for flywheels. Ones needed for longer runtimes can become cost prohibitive.

Another poster said something about hydraulic hybrids. Eaton Corporation is exploring this for vehicles like garbage trucks that repeatedly (>1000 times a day) travel only short distance between stops.

There are many of possibilities for new ways to power vehicles. In the fifties, Ford thought we would all be driving nuclear powered cars. They even came up with a concept car, the Ford Nucleon.

What ever you can envision as the next generation(s) of power plants for trucks, it will need to be affordable. This is truly a challenge, because the $60,000 trucks being made now are not affordable to many of us.

 

Hydraulic hybrids are capable of dealing with large loads. As are air hybrids.
I think air will win over hydraulic, just because the newer systems are incredible, reliable, and cheaper.

Air hybrid would rule for bringing loads to a stop, using the engine as an air pump.
When you go from a standstill, air hybrid will move the heavy loads SD's are used to.

An electric hybrid system will never perform on a SD very well, they are too heavy, and if you want high TQ output, the truck would weigh 4000lbs more.
Hydraulic hybrid is more practical for retrofitting existing vehicles.



The nice thing about an air hybrid, is that stop and go driving yeilds amazing mileage. Also, utilising some pressure could be used to spool turbochargers from a dead stop. The DPF could now be 1st from the engine, to get the most heat, and be easier on turbo's.

 

Back in 2002 Ford and Eaton were working hydraulic hybrid F350s. Ford also worked with the EPA on an E-550 hydraulic hybrid. Eaton production hydraulic systems are for heavier vehicles than the Super Duty. Interesting though, Ford is now working with the Center for Compact and Efficient Fluid Power and Folsom Technologies on a hydraulic hybrid F-150 pickup.

Hydraulic hybrid systems release power quicker but for a shorter time period. Electric hybrid systems have high energy storage capacity energy usage is more easily regulated. Moreover, if you need power for something other than moving the truck and you want it with the engine off a PHEV makes more sense. One of the design targets for an initial PHEV F550 was 10 miles on pure electric at about 30 mph.

Electric hybrids with the 5.4L V8 are already being used on vehicles with about 15,000 lb. GVWR. The specs on some of the evaluation and demonstration work for F550 was for approximately 19,500 lb GVWR.

All in all, it depends on your application. There is not one hybrid system for all applications.

Hey, one big advantage of PHEV you can run the air conditioning with the engine off.

 

Why would electric Ford be a problem? Just hook up one of those 9000 lb generators behind and you can drive whole day without pulling to gas station. Those generators have 130 gallons tanks.

 

A hybrid SD would require so much expense it isnt funny.
What does a battery for the hybrid escape cost? 5000$ ?
So it would roughly have to be 4x as big, plus the other systems would follow suit.

An air hybrid system can put out big power, similar or better than the hydraulic sysytem, and utilises the pumping action of the engine.
If I guy we're pulling stricktly 5th wheels, you could add air tanks in the bed to extend the volume.

The best part about the air hybrid is that you don't need an entirely brand new engineered truck like the electric deal. Same tranny, same axles, only new heads, computer, and the addition of air resevoir.

 

I seriously doubt they are re-engineering the truck. I see no need to change the transmission, axle, or any major engine component. For example, the design used for the E450s incorporates a traction motor (converts electrical energy to wheel torque) that is mounted after the transmission (5-Spd Torqshift Auto O/D Transmission). The traction motor would also recover energy during braking. Take a look at what they did with the E450 using the balance hybrid system.

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/SPC500985-B.pdf.pdf

If you need to change the heads for an air hybrid. They would have to produce new heads for every engine (6.7L diesel, 6.8L V10, and 6.2L V8).

And again, if you need power for something other than moving the truck and you want it with the engine off a PHEV makes more sense.



Pneumatic hybrids are coming and they may make it into trucks like these, but not yet.

 

A traction motor will never fit there, not with today's technology.

Unless they go really whimpy.

I've seen a 30 HP traction motor, it is about the size of a 20 gal drum.

There are small high performance traction motors, but those are for light vehicles, not massive heavy loads......I would have to imagine they would wear out super fast.
At this point, I'd say everything I've seen on the internet looks like trial stage stuff.

If you take a super duty truck, loaded to capacity, and calculate the joules it takes to get it rolling, you'll see that nothing available right now is capable of doing that from batteries.

Maybe for a ranger, not a super duty.