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New Brake Rotor Turned Blue (Heat) in 8-miles, Keep Using or Replace?

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New Brake Rotor Turned Blue (Heat) in 8-miles, Keep Using or Replace?

 
  #16  
Old 07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
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yer ebrake needs to be adjusted properly
 
  #17  
Old 07-11-2011, 02:43 PM
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Bluing on the rotors is very common during break in with ceramic pads.

It often occurs because the rotors have been double ground at the factory and as such have a cross hatched surface. This surface has lots of very small metal ridges in it that must be worn down for the pads to bed in properly. These small ridges will heat up quickly and turn blue, as thin metal will do when rubbed and heated. If you have ever used a lathe or mill you will see it from time to time.

Just continue to drive it normally, as the pads fully bed in, the cross hatching will go away along with the bluing.
 
  #18  
Old 07-11-2011, 07:56 PM
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Replaced the caliper and all is well ... no more sticking.

I'm guessing that the caliper was going bad, but still "working" in the sweet spot created by the old pad thickness, or lack of. As a result of the new pads and the new position of the pistons in the caliper, the "sticking" became amplified and locked the piston in.

Before putting it all back together, I inspected the pads & rotor very closely. The pad surface didn't look much different than 8-miles earlier. I saw no cracks or bright spots on the rotor ... it was "yellow-ish" near the drum, & the blue-ish was mostly on the outside edge. I felt no pulsation in the pedal during the test drive.

What was odd though, at about 2-miles into the test drive I stopped in a parking lot to test the rotor temp. While turning in & coming to a stop, I heard my ABS activate for a second. It did it again as I was leaving the parking lot. I drove about another 10-miles and never heard it again.
 
  #19  
Old 07-11-2011, 09:38 PM
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Calipers should be replaced in pairs. Any moisture you have in the lines prolly caused the piston(s) to rust seize in their bores. That moisture is still trapped in the line. Do a brake fluid flush as soon as practicle. That's my .02
 
  #20  
Old 07-12-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 98SurplusExpy View Post
...... What was odd though, at about 2-miles into the test drive I stopped in a parking lot to test the rotor temp. While turning in & coming to a stop, I heard my ABS activate for a second. It did it again as I was leaving the parking lot. I drove about another 10-miles and never heard it again.
Considering what the pads and rotor went through, not really.

Base friction material as you take it out of the box is really not the true brake compound. The base material is a mixture of organic and inorganic materials held together by a phenolic resin. During the act of braking the rubbing surface interface temperature at a sub-mil thickness gets up in the 2000F range, while at 1/8" deep into the pad it may only be 150F for that brake apply. The true rubbing friction surface turns into a carbon composite.

This is why when you first install pads initial "green" effectiveness is not high, along with needing to smooth both the rotor and pads surfaces and develop a transfer layer on the rotor. Some companies give you a "burnishing in" temperature procedure when installing new brakes.

Another example is when you have a dragging front caliper so there is more then a 100F temperature spread left to right, the vehicle will pull to the hot side. Semi-metallic pads like temperature and will change their friction level based on heat history.

After going through the dragging pad syndrome the pads on that side had developed a high friction level due to the burning of the organic compounds. With a few stops some of the overly carbonized surface wore off and the friction level is coming down to the level of the other three brakes.

Which brings up the point, if anyone normally runs their truck light weight all the time and especially more like a commuter vehicle, a series of three or four 50 mph brake applications in a row can bring the friction level up, at least for a while.
 
  #21  
Old 07-12-2011, 10:02 AM
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^ Great analysis ... thanks!
 
  #22  
Old 07-13-2011, 01:24 AM
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Wow^^^excellent information thank you! I've been doing the 50mph or so scrub off as I call it, for years after seeing the GM engineering testers using a similar procedure before hitting the brake course, it's excellent to know why and how the burnishing process actually works, is there a specific rotor temp. We should be looking for?
 
  #23  
Old 07-13-2011, 09:50 PM
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If they were running FMVSS 105 / 135 tests the brakes have to be within a specific temperature window to perform the stops by procedure. They should be running normal "burnish stops/ snubs" to warm them up.

****** Is there a specific rotor temp. We should be looking for?

For testing on an SD we would have run: Vehicle at GVW; 200 Stops; 40 mph; 12 fpsps; 250F IBT or 1 Mile Maximum. That's not practical without instrumentation, nor would I recommend that to a consumer.

It yields a data profile such as this from a 2005 SD SRW:





Before the truck starts burnish it runs off 10 low energy check stops then 15 high deceleration stops from 30, 40, and 60 mph. So even after that it takes another 30-50 GVW burnish stops before the pedal effort / hydraulic pressure is at its lowest, indicating good overall vehicle effectiveness has been achieved.

But if you look at the temperature data, it's not until around stop 105 that the front brakes are fully in and rear temperatures have settled low. Now the front brakes are doing their full share with a higher effectiveness, dissipating more energy while the rear are dissipating less.

Your going to ask what the h*** happened after stop 128. The vehicle shut down for the night and friction materials do funky things. Being the pads and rotors were heat soaked the phenolic resin and organics continues to bake and change the composition of the friction composite and hardened off. Balance has shifted more to the fronts but since the compound is not quite as "green gummy" as i used to call it, pedal efforts and hydraulic pressures are a little higher in order to achieve the same deceleration rate (fpsps).

The other burnish data is after sequences of the FMVSS 105 test.

So the point of all this is that it takes more then just a few stops to fully seat in new brakes, and it tends to be impractical for the consumer to do this.
 
  #24  
Old 07-13-2011, 09:56 PM
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But it really ex plains why I've always felt that new brakes need to be "broken in" before towing on heavy hauling that really makes me feel better bought that decision! Thanks for great info!
 
  #25  
Old 08-08-2011, 09:23 PM
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Revisiting ...

This particular rotor 'n pad that was heated (original post) is now "squeaking" from say 20-mph to 0-mph (decel) ... and what puzzles me the most, it also squeaks from 0-mph to 20-mph (accel).

The wierdest thing! I'm contemplating just biting the bullit & replacing the rotor anf the pad on this wheel.
 
  #26  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:00 AM
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You didn't mention if the noise was cyclical, which would concern the rotor - otherwise it's not.

Noise under 20 mph is the most common situation for any vehicle as the you get into an area that we call “negative friction–velocity slope”. You can drive yourself nuts and Google for the technical data if you have nothing better to do.

As I mentioned earlier, I was worried about what temperatures the pads, especially a “green” pads went through. You could have situations that are causing this noise.

The noise during deceleration could be due to some thermal deterioration of the pad or the noise insulator that is adhered to the back of the steelback. Friction carbonization from the heat could just be deeper then normal within the puck that will eventually wear away. Or it could be that you are starting to have some delamination between the friction and an underlayer material used between the friction and steelback, or separation between the steelback and friction / underlayer, depending on whose pads you have. That’s not so good and non-healing.

The insulator could also be thermally damaged and contributing to noise rather then abatement. That is not going to heal either.

My higher concern is why there is noise during acceleration, which could only occur if a pad was in contact with the rotor in a somewhat substantial way, and that is going to need to be investigated.

The situations noted in the third paragraph can lead to non-apply brake noise if the separations are allowing enough expansion of the pad assembly to take up the normal free play between the rotor and pad.

Also I know that you replaced the caliper, but you still may have the issue that caused the initial temperature spike in the first place. There is not hard tell for this other then another full inspection of how the new caliper’s pistons are moving, checking the slide pins again, and the possibility that the brake hose was the culprit due to deterioration of the hose’s internal ply.
 
  #27  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by fmtrvt View Post
You didn't mention if the noise was cyclical, which would concern the rotor - otherwise it's not.
Yeah ... its a "squeak......squeak.....squeak....squeak...squeak. .squeak.squeak" as the speed increases.

What concerned me too was the no-pedal acceleration squeak .... so it looks like the writing is on the wall.

Would there be any issues with replacing the rotor, pad, & outer hose on "just this wheel"??
 
  #28  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:01 AM
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I would......
 
  #29  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:57 PM
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There may be some rotor issues then.

But another little thing maybe you should check before you start buying all those parts. See how your parking brake is and check if the backing plates are rusted around the parking brake hold down pins. I've got some pictures in my facebook albums about those.

If the parking brake shoe is loose it will come into contact with the hub and drum making that same kind of noise. We're (me) concentrating on the service brake since that is where the work was last.
 
  #30  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:00 PM
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Well ... all good info 'n all ... but I jacked up the rear this afternoon and ran the truck to pin point the noise and it wasn't the breaks ... they were smooth & quiet.

The noise is coming from the differential pumpkin ... originating in the pinion shaft area!
 
 
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