Hello all. First timer here. I would like to know what kind of power I can make with this combo... or even if this is a good combo to begin with. I got this 1975 400 motor with D5AE A2A heads. So this is my starting point. I don't see the need to get a new block if this one checks out ok. The heads might be another story though

I want to use the stock connecting rods and crank assuming all are OK... with T Meyer KB2347 pistons. I should be somewhere around the mid 9's in compression. I also plan on using the Falcon Ultimate camshaft kit CK2206. Basically 224/234 intake/exhaust @.050 lift. Some sort of 600-650 4 bbl carb and a dual plane intake. Headers of course.

So what is the concensus? how much Horsepower? how much Torque? I appreciate all responses... Thanks all

Other stuff: A rebuilt C6 with 2400 stall converter...

All this will go into a 1941 Ford 3/4 pickup.

 

On the combo you have the carburator and stall? bigger stall 650cfm isn't enough. 750cfm atleast and quality carb. If using your heads openchamber can work. But the tim meyer heads are decent, austrailian closed chamber. Is this a street or mudder or daily vehicle. The 2400 stall depends on how much power you make. c-6 low gear kit or any other upgrades in c-6? Your engine can make good power but in an extreme situation high rpms the 400 isn't the best block due to cylinder wall thickness. Some guys make it work with higher compression 12.1 comp and up to 14's but the rod to stroke ratio is the trick. how much piston side load in cylinder is applied. many questions to be answered. on your chasis on 1941 truck sanderson headers is a place to check into. Google up 400m shortblock into a 351 cleveland stroker engine. Nice little read on 400 potential. with the correct head/cam 500 hrspwr isn't hard.

 

Thanks for the reply Wyoming. You sound like a RADICAL FORD motor head. I too am a motor head, but a lot more mellow, at least for this build. Here is the low down.

This will be my 2nd complete engine build. I have access to a machine shop so labor cost for machining is 0$. I would like to keep this build mildly insane. Dont want to get in too far over my head with my limited experience. AND I dont want to spend alot of money but DO want to end up with a BULLET PROOF 300-400 hp motor using the stock crank, rods, heads and block. I figure the mid 9s for compression the stock rods and crank will get me most of the way there and my choice of cam will do the rest. What I dont know is if the D5AE heads are up to the task. If ported semi-aggressively can these get the job done? and still be reliable? I want to build my reputation as a BULLET PROOF engine builder, not a builder of engines that last for 10 seconds, but more like 10 years.

When I write bullet proof I MEAN BULLET PROOF...
The last thing I want to build is a lifter munching, broken timing chain, rod bending, hunk a cast iron, call AAA for a lift home type of Hot Rod. I want to build it once, the right way, and drive my baby home.

The transmission I have is the '75 C6 that came bolted to the block from the factory. I plan on doing a high quality rebuild installing a new torque converter with 2000+ rpm stall. definitely put a Shift kit, modified valveing, clutches, bands etc. to get hard quick shifts. My first thought is to stay with the standard gear set and put 3.55s in the 3rd member. I want to be able to run at freeway speeds and still have some hearing left afterwards. I might regear 1st and 2nd though. Not sure yet.

All this will be going into a street rod '41 Ford truck. Mustang II IFS, 9" ford with triangulated four link and a 3rd member with a Detroit Locker. The vehicle will not be a daily driver, but it will be driven. I want it to chirp the tires every shift and have a loping idle that sounds mean and nasty. You know, The perfect old school grocery getter.

I dont want or need to rev it past 6k so extreme running at this point is not for me. I plan on an Edlebrock Performer Intake so 6k is the max rpm I need to plan on. I like Holley 650 4 bbl carbs. Will run PCV, and no EGR. I have created a spreadsheet on the parts/costs and it looks like $2500 will be what it takes to get this motor completely done, air cleaner to exhaust headers.

$2500 is a lot of dead presidents considering old (but renewed and ported) heads, old (but polished) cast crank, old (but balanced) rods and old block. All else will be brand new though. I guess I can paint the heads and block a new Ford blue.

I have read about the potential of the 400 Michigan block. It is good reading, but after thinking about what you end up with, I really see the whole thing as a waste of money. I dont want to make a 434 Stroker as I just dont see this as the block to make 500 hp with. Maybe I am totally wrong here (due to inexperience) and maybe 500 hp is a drop in the bucket for the 400 block. $2400 for the stroker kit alone? I am building a complete motor with hopefully 300 hp for $100 more. A complete stroker motor air filter to headers would then run around $5k. And how about only 3 of the 5 mains can be retrofitted to 4 bolt mains - what about the end caps? Cant do it? F that man. So now after spending $5K, how long would the motor last you? 6 months or 6 years? I would much rather do it to a block originally designed with 4 or even 6 bolt mains. I would buy a used LS2 or LS6 for 2-3 thou and a Master rebuild kit for a few hundos and be thousands ahead with a "Bullet Proof" motor.

 

The only thing I would do is get rid of your open chamber heads, and step up too Edelbrock or the Aussy 3V's.

The quench area is much better, and allow more compression resistance on the same octane vs the open chamber heads.

With that cam my guess is you'll crest 400h pretty easily, and if you add roller rocks with the other bolt-ons. You may be able to get close to 450 with the 2 heads I mentioned.

 

yeah...Ziegel! oder JA Ich weiss aber ich dont want to spend the extra GELD

Wyoming. I read the "Installing A 400M Short-Block Into A 351 Cleveland Stroker Engine - Kind Of A Cleveland" article. Thanks for that tidbit of info. I really appreciate it. I just might go this way now.

gotta luv this part:

Once you have a complete (and hopefully running) motor, the level of power you require will dictate how far you dig into the motor. The short and sweet route is to replace the factory two-barrel carb and intake with a four-barrel equivalent (from Edelbrock or Weiand), add a set of tubular headers (for your chassis) and possibly a mild RV-type cam (any cam ground for the Cleveland family will fit the 400M). If everything else is in working order, you can expect a solid power gain from these minor mods.

Taking things a little farther, you can step up in cam profile (to something just over 220 degrees of duration at 0.050) and perform a little port work to the 400M two-barrel (2V) heads. Combine the cam swap with a slight milling to increase the static compression ratio above that normally associated with forced induction use, and you can expect to literally double the original factory power output.



Read more: Installing A 400M Short-Block Into A 351 Cleveland Stroker Engine | Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords Magazine Article at Automotive.com

 

You'll see below the results of my engine build using basically the same setup you mentioned except for the cam. I used a mild Compcam 255DEH.
Stock rods, crank and heads, KB2347 pistons(9.3:1), long tube headers, Edelbrock 400 intake, Edelbrock 600 cfm carb and Scorpion roller rockers.

 

I'm back. On the short block crank and rods will work perfect. Just need to upgrade your rod bolts and main bolts. this is my personal experience with older ford engines. tim meyer pistons work fine. Read about tim meyer cam bearings and his upgrade highly reccomend. Also if possible upgrade your heads like mentioned before to small combustion chamber very forgiving to pre-ignition or detonation. If stuck with factory heads open chamber they can work but porting is a requirement. [url=http://www.mpgheads.com]MPG Heads might still sell a template to rent so you can duplicate a ported head. been along time since I checked into this but scott is pretty sharp on these things. Another thing is look into www.enginemaster.com. I think 2010 or 2009 400ford won this very tough competition by jon kaase. MPgheads was in the running but his comp cams fast fuel injection system died when it mattered most with his 400 ford. His 400 ford got him to the final with the 3rd best numbers of the week and fuel injection system died, very sad. Highly recommend the low gear kit for c-6. it frees up hrspwr with the rollerizing of internals compared to bushings and shims which create friction and heat. 650cfm isn't enough for a 2400stall 400 ford! Need to read about annular booster in carburators, good education and things to understand. All carbs are not created equal. the booster signal per application is the trick to make a engine a big dawg or a kitten. Trick flow is makeing a cyl head also for the hrspwr range you speak of also. CHI is probably the best out their in this hrspwr range out of the box period. If you look into enginemaster look what everybody runs in ford world. Compare similar engines in cleveland world or windsors its pretty much CHI heads from australia, they work. but their are many other good ones out their. it just about the money$$. I run [url=http://www.mpghead.com]MPGHead - MPG cams from scott. About the same as bought off shelf stuff and scott can break in the cam for you at his shop also if solid or hyd. but reccomend a hyd roller. engine oils are changing and not for the best for hyd cams and solids. Zinc addatives are becoming a must. If it goes bad you loose a cam and have to go through engine again. So I'm building a hyd roller myself as we speak. btm end good and upgrade bolts and hyd roller and port heads or buy something modern. 400hrspwr not to hard to do at 9.5 comperssion just figure 1hrspwr per cube and your already their. most engines don't make 1hrspwr per cube. catch you later and got to go. forgot MSD igniton and a phaseable rotor from MSD. All ignitons are not created equal either especially if the rotor isn't pointing at the distrib cap contact. sometimes you need to fine tune the rotor, phaseable rotor. adios amigo.

 

SmokeyB thanks for the post. That is exactly what I signed up for at this site. How reliable has your motor been? Any problems or any heads up issues I would greatly appreciate hearing about. Are you having any problems with detonation? and what octane gas do you regularly use?

478 @ 2900 rpm is ridiculous torque and over 300 hp anywhere past 3400 is gonna gitter done. Hope you swapped out that 600 for a 750 heheh.

Wyoming. Man whenever you post you are puttin my azz to work!!!!! But I love it and wouldnt have it any other way. Im like a dry sponge and just soak up every drop of info I can learn. I added ARP rod bolts and their Main stud kit to my build sheet and it totally makes sense. I will try my D5AE heads first b4 spending $. I can port 'em, mill 'em myself. I plan on Hydraulic flat tappets running Mobil1 full synthetic and ZDDP. ZDDP kills catalytic converters which is why it is no longer an additive in motor oils today. No cat to worry about on this truck though. Mobil1 full synthetic is good for 25k miles before changing too, just gotta change the filter 2-3x and top off between 25k refills. After more reading I guess a Holley 750 is what I will be using instead. Check out SmokeyBs dyno slips; they ran a "shop 750". Nuff said there. I will look today for Annular booster 750 carbs. Factory rebuilt Holley 750s are downright cheap though; like $200.
Still need to read up on regearing the C6 and the roller bearing stuff; that all makes sense too.
good night good morning all

 

Mobil one is a great oil, but do not break in your new engine with a top grade (or any) Synthetic. It is too slippery etc to ensure proper break in on a new engine. The first 6-10 runs are crucial to a proper break in and the synthetic doesn't allow it. There was a website that indicated a rather aggressive break that i think I got off a link on one of these pages a while back (anyone help?). I even rang the Castrol (do you have castrol in the US/canada?) hotline for advice as I was going to go with one of their Edge synthetics for that type of engine AFTER break in and was told by the expert not to worry about it as the GTX2-3 I was going to use for break in was fine even for that!! cost them but saved me some money. I will change to something better very soon as it's due for the 2nd oil change after rebuild. Just something to think about

 

Been running the quickfuel carbs and had excellent performance from these carbs. their are better carbs out their but for what we are trying to do these kick but. I know the barry grant carbs work also but they went out of business. but if you know what your lookin for they can do a nice job also. One other thing I personally run bigger carbs and tune them. my 400 cj engine will have atleast 800+ cfm on it. My elevation just kills hrspwr and can't have much restriction down here in lower 4000' elevation and when I go higher 9000'+ need any air you can get. So i tend to run bigger than whats reccomended. If you run smaller carbs they are a restrictions and can't have that especially when their isn't any air. Some people will laugh at me and say I'm an idiot but to those who know the results are dumbfounded and amazed. Most carbs I set up are for 4wds nice RV type cams or little more extreme these days. Did a annular 650 1:1 on a 302 bronco normal rv cam and was totally amazed, he's my machinist also. helped his low end torque and improved mileage. Chunked the edelbrock to the curb. some people drag race and certain requirements for extreme hrspwr and torque. I try and squezze the most out of my 4wd engines like a drag racer would and boggerguy would. I'm rambling and I'll catch you guys later. All carbs are not created equal is all I know.

 

One thing for sure is work the sides and tops especially on the exhaust. Opening up the throat or turn downs is a major upgrade. If you just upgrade to a better flowing valve is a jump in flow compared to OEM. Open up your inlet where the seat is pressed into head. Just doing these little things are probably 75% of the work and then the fine tuning come into play. Gskt match the intakes and don't want a mirror polished finish. Want a little bit rough surface to help keep fuel in vaporized state. If you can get a snap gage for measureing your ports or some kinda too to reach down inside to help keep ports uniform. If flowing your heads find the weakest port then you match all your ports to the weakest one. Helps keep all cylinders working evenly. Its kinda like having a big guy and a small guy carrying a couch little guy is getting killed. things are just out of balance and if you even things out is just a good thing especially in engines. helps keep from having a lean cylinder and causing preigniton or one cylinder from working harder than the rest. Just more stuff to keep you up at night! I'm working this very subject as we speak so its fresh on my mind and you had very good timeing. I haven't been sleeping well lately.

 

not highjacking thread as this may be of use to the guy. what sort of jetting would be a starting point for a mildly worked 400? I know its dependant on the engine and carb, but there is no point getting a carb and having the jets too small to start with for example. I have a 725 holley supplied with the standard jets all round although these were specced originally for a 289. I swapped the squirters out with a bigger set and that made a big difference, but I may need to go bigger in the primaries as well. quite happy with the secondaries although they may need a jump if the others are changed. Ideas?

 

The engine has been extremely reliable. I did have some detonation issues and had a distributor recurved for my engine, gearing, trans. etc.. I've had to use premium fuel even before the engine build. Also, if you use a flat tappet hydraulic cam I would get a set of new inspected lifters from Tmeyer,inc. I had to replace the ones I had because of a lot of lifter ticking. The dyno sheet shows the shops 750 Holley. It was used during the break-in only, the Edelbrock 1406 600cfm was taken new out of the box and installed to do the actual dyno pulls. There were no adjustsments done to this carb during the pulls, only timing. The engine builder suggested the Edelbrock for a dailey driver because they've been so reliable. He runs a Holley on his race engines but doesn't recommend them for daily drivers.

 

Normally I stay up til 2-3 am and get up at 8. Get back online from 9-12 then go to work. Been doing this for a couple weeks now bustin my azz on rear ends, third members, Trans, Cam timing, Intakes, Motors - Ford and Chevy, Pricing everything under the sun at ebay, jegs, Master rebuild kits at powerhouse etc... The learning curve for me right now is straight uphill. I really need to know the things like why do you need to have higher than stock compression when running a big lobe cam, why the gearing needs to be higher, what is quench, why can aluminum heads run higher comp than cast iron... and the list goes on. There is just all this **** that is so cool to know and I want to know alot more of it.

When I finally get behind the wheel of the truck that I built, and I mean that I hand built, I will enjoy knowing I just didnt sign my name on a check like most of the other hot rod dorks here in California who just wanna look cool and pay the price. When something isnt right with my ride or someone elses, it will be ultra cool to fall back on the knowledge I have gained and I will pass the torch so to speak for the sake of hotrodding and the satisfaction of helping other enthusiasts out there.

Ok just so you guys know a little more, this being my first build, will be a budget minded build. Flat tappet Hydraulic cams not rollers, OE heads not after market. Cast pistons not forged... get the picture. I am gonna learn old school first this truck is my guinea pig. I am not going to sacrifice on suspension ever because I like drivable vehicles. I mean turning and stopping and of course straight line hauling azzzzzzzzzzzzz So Mustang II IFS, Triangulated 4 link pulling up the rear... Next build will probably be with an IFS rear. Big brakes or more like matched braking to engine power will always be a non-compromise standard for anything I build.

SmokeyB --- more to learn up on Distributor recurving... thanks buddy. Glad your motor is running as it should. I am very glad since your motor is my motor. I used to own an El Camino SS and ran a Holley in it as my DDriver for prolly 10 years. Wondering why not recommended for that?

CRSmiffy - no worries and sorry I am of no use to you ... YET regarding jetting. I know more than most on the subject of oils and their additives, so yeah I concur. would never dream of using a full synthetic to break in a new motor. ludicrousnesstion. I was merely letting on to my method of being cheap with getting away running ZDDP w/Mobil1 for a extended amount of miles. Just gotta run a GOOD oil filter and change it, not the oil. Even though M1 is good for 25K I only run it for 10-12K.

WYO - I concur on the head porting. I like that snap T gauge idea for checking for even sized ports - awesome stuff there. I think I will buy the single plane Weiand 2V intake - always wanted one. Will definitely port match sizes of intake to the intake side of the head. That is just a no brainer. If my OE valves are outta spec and or just need to be replaced, I was just gonna buy more OE stuff. If you think Stainless is the way (or way not) to go please let me know. I dont know a damn thing about matching flow to the weakest port. Need some more splainin about that.
$200 for a Holley! Cant beat that with a stick. Annular boosters are available as an upgrade kit to the 750 Holley. I read up on annulars today. I will probably get those since I am running the open chamber heads. They just might save my S too.

 

their is a book called engine blueprinting great book on engines. I highly reccomend this book especially where you are at in the learning world. Its about 20 bucks if I remember correctly. Might be some better books out their but I know this is a good one. On the port flow stuff. If you flow your heads and one of your cylinders can only flow 250cfm. the trick to have a smooth running engine on exhaust temps and lean conditions is everything has to work together. so you want everything to work together meaning all flow 250 cfm at 28" of water. 28" of water is a standard used when flowing cylinder heads. so if one cylinder can make 40 hrspwr you want them all the make 40 hrspwr. 40 x 8=320 hrspwr. If you get one cylinder making excessively more you could create a hot spot or strange exhaust temp issues before you even fire up the engine just by design. Not as critical on lower hrspwr engines but as you start pushing the limits it will come into play. Another thing is on your intake valve are they pointing to a cylinder wall or are they dropping into the center of the cylinder. this causes shrouding issues sometimes. Just more stuff to keep you up at night. I reccomend a better flowing valve compard to factory. Catch you later and will check back soon. gonna be breaking down a 1970 ford 4wd crewcab, prep for soda blasting. catch you later. Also low compression engines causes lazy combustion chambers. compression helps with preventing this to a point. Modern cams also help on this also.