Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 134
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From: NJ USA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
I'm going to give this a try, even though I don't have any problems, as I'm a total engine freak with some extra time, and I'll prolly change out the oil as well.
I wouldn't do this unless necessary. As a mechanic friend just told me Friday, slight carbon build-up is actually beneficial to engine (something about internal sealing). Besides, I've been reading your posts for awhile now -- your driving style probably hasn't led to a big build-up. Sometimes that old saying is right on: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Do you guys think that this carbon knock issue would cause lower gas mileage?
I agree with Bob, it will not impact your mileage. But I disagree with Bob (sorry, buddy) on the spark plug/gas mileage issue. Based on what you've already paid for a set of the +4s (about $40) and what you'll pay for the Motorcrafts (more than that), you'd just be wasting money. In my opinion, comparing between correctly gapped, non-fouled plugs of two different brands/types will yield negligible changes in gas mileage. I've never read anything in over 25 years that disputes that fact.
What you need to accept, as do a couple of other regulars on this forum, is that there is little you can do to improve your mileage. As long as you have:
A large, torquey V6 w/automatic,
The inherent aerodynamic disadvantage that all trucks have,
The added disadvantage of huge tires, which add increased rolling resistance, weight and drag,
The weight of the truck,
and...a lead foot.
...you will never get "good" gas mileage.
Ask yourself this: Do you enjoy your truck, as it is? Does it make you smile? If so, then accept the gas mileage as the cost of admission. It's really that simple! (And hope for the price of gas to come down soon!)
My 10 cents. Fire away...
I wouldn't do this unless necessary. As a mechanic friend just told me Friday, slight carbon build-up is actually beneficial to engine (something about internal sealing). Besides, I've been reading your posts for awhile now -- your driving style probably hasn't led to a big build-up. Sometimes that old saying is right on: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Do you guys think that this carbon knock issue would cause lower gas mileage?
I agree with Bob, it will not impact your mileage. But I disagree with Bob (sorry, buddy) on the spark plug/gas mileage issue. Based on what you've already paid for a set of the +4s (about $40) and what you'll pay for the Motorcrafts (more than that), you'd just be wasting money. In my opinion, comparing between correctly gapped, non-fouled plugs of two different brands/types will yield negligible changes in gas mileage. I've never read anything in over 25 years that disputes that fact.
What you need to accept, as do a couple of other regulars on this forum, is that there is little you can do to improve your mileage. As long as you have:
A large, torquey V6 w/automatic,
The inherent aerodynamic disadvantage that all trucks have,
The added disadvantage of huge tires, which add increased rolling resistance, weight and drag,
The weight of the truck,
and...a lead foot.
...you will never get "good" gas mileage.
Ask yourself this: Do you enjoy your truck, as it is? Does it make you smile? If so, then accept the gas mileage as the cost of admission. It's really that simple! (And hope for the price of gas to come down soon!)
My 10 cents. Fire away...
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 3
From: Durham, NC
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by MickeyP
[I]
I agree with Bob, it will not impact your mileage. But I disagree with Bob (sorry, buddy) on the spark plug/gas mileage issue. Based on what you've already paid for a set of the +4s (about $40) and what you'll pay for the Motorcrafts (more than that), you'd just be wasting money. In my opinion, comparing between correctly gapped, non-fouled plugs of two different brands/types will yield negligible changes in gas mileage. I've never read anything in over 25 years that disputes that fact.
[I]
I agree with Bob, it will not impact your mileage. But I disagree with Bob (sorry, buddy) on the spark plug/gas mileage issue. Based on what you've already paid for a set of the +4s (about $40) and what you'll pay for the Motorcrafts (more than that), you'd just be wasting money. In my opinion, comparing between correctly gapped, non-fouled plugs of two different brands/types will yield negligible changes in gas mileage. I've never read anything in over 25 years that disputes that fact.
(correctly gapped, not-fouled plugs) is heat range. I KNOW that
the Bosch plugs are the WRONG heat range for my 3.0L FFV,
which made the MPG bad. I also had the same results with
Motorcraft AGSF22PP plugs, which Ford is now recommending
as the correct plug for the 3.0L FFV!! I found the CORRECT
plug (AGSF12PP), and my MPG went up, as well as running
better.....
Just my $0.02........
Bob
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,748
Likes: 16
From: Connecticut
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
What you need to accept, as do a couple of other regulars on this forum, is that there is little you can do to improve your mileage. As long as you have:
A large, torquey V6 w/automatic,
The inherent aerodynamic disadvantage that all trucks have,
The added disadvantage of huge tires, which add increased rolling resistance, weight and drag,
The weight of the truck,
and...a lead foot.
...you will never get "good" gas mileage.
A large, torquey V6 w/automatic,
The inherent aerodynamic disadvantage that all trucks have,
The added disadvantage of huge tires, which add increased rolling resistance, weight and drag,
The weight of the truck,
and...a lead foot.
...you will never get "good" gas mileage.
. Something all of us here at FTE share is the never ending quest to make our trucks run better. Toward that end, the sky is the limit
.Rock
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
From: NJ USA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
I also had the same results with
Motorcraft AGSF22PP plugs, which Ford is now recommending
as the correct plug for the 3.0L FFV!! I found the CORRECT
plug (AGSF12PP), and my MPG went up, as well as running
better.....
...and the bullets are flyin'!
Bob,
I can't sit here and say you're lying. But I can say that if all these OEMs are selling plugs that are THAT far off on heat range, INCLUDING FORD, then something's amiss. Have you contacted either (Ford or Bosch) on this? I would. Also, what are we talking about on the increased MPG? Knowing how the difference in filling the tank can vary by over a gallon from each fill (and each station), and taking into account air temp, driving style, etc., are you 100% sure the differences you saw are SOLEY as a result of this spark plug issue?
Bob, I'm only trying to make sure that people don't read your post, see it as a panacea for their gas mileage problems and run out and dump up to $60 on spark plugs, only to see no measurable improvement.
Rock,
Hey, where's my soap info?? (Just got your PM, THANKS!) Anyway,
But our acknowledgment of them does not mean that we are willing to accept them .
On the contrary, if you're not willing to accept them, your only alternative is to sell the truck, right?
No fancy air filters, spark plugs, gas line magnets, etc., etc. will improve the mileage. It starts with the right foot, and even that will have limited success. It's the price of torque first (remember him?), then crap aerodynamics, weight, tires, and so on.
Once again, so y'all don't misread my motives: I'm trying to SAVE YOU MONEY. Don't fall for the hype that the marketers are pushing!
Motorcraft AGSF22PP plugs, which Ford is now recommending
as the correct plug for the 3.0L FFV!! I found the CORRECT
plug (AGSF12PP), and my MPG went up, as well as running
better.....
...and the bullets are flyin'!
Bob,
I can't sit here and say you're lying. But I can say that if all these OEMs are selling plugs that are THAT far off on heat range, INCLUDING FORD, then something's amiss. Have you contacted either (Ford or Bosch) on this? I would. Also, what are we talking about on the increased MPG? Knowing how the difference in filling the tank can vary by over a gallon from each fill (and each station), and taking into account air temp, driving style, etc., are you 100% sure the differences you saw are SOLEY as a result of this spark plug issue?
Bob, I'm only trying to make sure that people don't read your post, see it as a panacea for their gas mileage problems and run out and dump up to $60 on spark plugs, only to see no measurable improvement.
Rock,
Hey, where's my soap info??
(Just got your PM, THANKS!) Anyway,But our acknowledgment of them does not mean that we are willing to accept them .
On the contrary, if you're not willing to accept them, your only alternative is to sell the truck, right?
No fancy air filters, spark plugs, gas line magnets, etc., etc. will improve the mileage. It starts with the right foot, and even that will have limited success. It's the price of torque first (remember him?), then crap aerodynamics, weight, tires, and so on. Once again, so y'all don't misread my motives: I'm trying to SAVE YOU MONEY. Don't fall for the hype that the marketers are pushing!
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,748
Likes: 16
From: Connecticut
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
your only alternative is to sell the truck, right?
The other alternative is to choose to ignore the limitations. Selective blindness, if you will. Caring for our trucks doesn't always have to be dictated soley by reason
.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,940
Likes: 2
From: Eastern WA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
About using only PM-3....I really don't know if other brands work, but since Ford created the TSB naturally they will use only Ford materials. Three cans cost me under $20.
Next, one should note that this TSB is directed at the 4.0L OHV, not the 3.0L.
About the carbon and sealing, what your mechanic buddy is getting at is that in older, worn engines, carbon buildup can actually help improve compression and lower oil consumption. If you're engine is in good condition and clean as a consequence of regular oil/fileter changes, almost 100% of the compression will be created by the rings, and oild usage is mamaged by the oil ring, not from carbon. And of course, it is worth noting that severe detonation is also destructive to any engine. I did the TSB at about 140,000 miles, and I still don't burn a drop between changes, I did the TSB on a sound, clean engine too.
About the spark plug brands, well, that one is beyond the scope of my original posting. Besides, plug brands are like politics and religion......................
Next, one should note that this TSB is directed at the 4.0L OHV, not the 3.0L.
About the carbon and sealing, what your mechanic buddy is getting at is that in older, worn engines, carbon buildup can actually help improve compression and lower oil consumption. If you're engine is in good condition and clean as a consequence of regular oil/fileter changes, almost 100% of the compression will be created by the rings, and oild usage is mamaged by the oil ring, not from carbon. And of course, it is worth noting that severe detonation is also destructive to any engine. I did the TSB at about 140,000 miles, and I still don't burn a drop between changes, I did the TSB on a sound, clean engine too.
About the spark plug brands, well, that one is beyond the scope of my original posting. Besides, plug brands are like politics and religion......................
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,821
Likes: 19
From: South Dakota
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by Bob Ayers
Don't think so.....But I notice you are using Bosch plugs, try
getting rid of them, and go with Motorcraft double platinums,
they shoud help your MPG.....
Don't think so.....But I notice you are using Bosch plugs, try
getting rid of them, and go with Motorcraft double platinums,
they shoud help your MPG.....
I was just more or less curious on wether carbon knock in other people's opinions would cause less mpg, and that's all.
As far as the buying the PM3 cans, I was expecting at least 10 bucks a can, 20 for three is'nt all that bad.
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 3
From: Durham, NC
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by MickeyP
I also had the same results with
Motorcraft AGSF22PP plugs, which Ford is now recommending
as the correct plug for the 3.0L FFV!! I found the CORRECT
plug (AGSF12PP), and my MPG went up, as well as running
better.....
...and the bullets are flyin'!
Bob,
I can't sit here and say you're lying. But I can say that if all these OEMs are selling plugs that are THAT far off on heat range, INCLUDING FORD, then something's amiss. Have you contacted either (Ford or Bosch) on this? I would. Also, what are we talking about on the increased MPG? Knowing how the difference in filling the tank can vary by over a gallon from each fill (and each station), and taking into account air temp, driving style, etc., are you 100% sure the differences you saw are SOLEY as a result of this spark plug issue?
Bob, I'm only trying to make sure that people don't read your post, see it as a panacea for their gas mileage problems and run out and dump up to $60 on spark plugs, only to see no measurable improvement.
Rock,
Hey, where's my soap info?? (Just got your PM, THANKS!) Anyway,
But our acknowledgment of them does not mean that we are willing to accept them .
On the contrary, if you're not willing to accept them, your only alternative is to sell the truck, right? No fancy air filters, spark plugs, gas line magnets, etc., etc. will improve the mileage. It starts with the right foot, and even that will have limited success. It's the price of torque first (remember him?), then crap aerodynamics, weight, tires, and so on.
Once again, so y'all don't misread my motives: I'm trying to SAVE YOU MONEY. Don't fall for the hype that the marketers are pushing!
I also had the same results with
Motorcraft AGSF22PP plugs, which Ford is now recommending
as the correct plug for the 3.0L FFV!! I found the CORRECT
plug (AGSF12PP), and my MPG went up, as well as running
better.....
...and the bullets are flyin'!
Bob,
I can't sit here and say you're lying. But I can say that if all these OEMs are selling plugs that are THAT far off on heat range, INCLUDING FORD, then something's amiss. Have you contacted either (Ford or Bosch) on this? I would. Also, what are we talking about on the increased MPG? Knowing how the difference in filling the tank can vary by over a gallon from each fill (and each station), and taking into account air temp, driving style, etc., are you 100% sure the differences you saw are SOLEY as a result of this spark plug issue?
Bob, I'm only trying to make sure that people don't read your post, see it as a panacea for their gas mileage problems and run out and dump up to $60 on spark plugs, only to see no measurable improvement.
Rock,
Hey, where's my soap info??
(Just got your PM, THANKS!) Anyway,But our acknowledgment of them does not mean that we are willing to accept them .
On the contrary, if you're not willing to accept them, your only alternative is to sell the truck, right?
No fancy air filters, spark plugs, gas line magnets, etc., etc. will improve the mileage. It starts with the right foot, and even that will have limited success. It's the price of torque first (remember him?), then crap aerodynamics, weight, tires, and so on. Once again, so y'all don't misread my motives: I'm trying to SAVE YOU MONEY. Don't fall for the hype that the marketers are pushing!
I am 100% sure on what I personally saw on my Ranger!!
I think it is a real shame that the "bean counters" at Ford made
the decision to stop production on the correct plug for the 3.0L
FFV!! The change in MPG was only about 10% (20MPG to 22MPG)
going from the AGSF22PP to the AGSF12PP, but the biggest
difference was how much smoother it ran with the AGSF12PPs
(especially at idle).
Like I said, the AGSF12PP is the plug called out in my owner's manual. Ken00 (moderator on the Ranger board) checked his
owner's manual for the recommended plug, and there was a
label over the original AGSF12PP, changing it to AGSF22PP.
I'm sure the Ford "bean counters" figured that the majority of
the owner's of Ford Ranger 3.0L FFVs won't change their plugs
till 100K miles, and by then they will be way out of warranty,
and "NOT Ford's problem", so why carry this additional plug
P/N?????
The AGSF22PPs that I first bought from Ford were pulled with
about 5K miles on them, and they had the "appearance" of
running too HOT!!! Luckily, I was able to find the AGSF12PPs
to put back in it by using: www.partsvoice.com
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Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,085
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From: West Chester PA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by CowboyBilly9Mile
a. Disconnect canister purge line from throttle body.
a. Disconnect canister purge line from throttle body.
Where exactly is the cannister purge line? Is it the vacum hose under the throttle body that has an "L" fitting that dissappears under the throttle body? That's the only vacum hose that I can see on the throttle body, but I want to make sure that I'm cleaning it right. Thanks.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,940
Likes: 2
From: Eastern WA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
As I recall, left front on the throttle body and the steel section has a "L" shape. Small fingers or a long needle nose pliers make removal/install easier. If needed, I can email a dig pic. The tipoff is this line runs to the canister purge. I also recall the tube being 5/32 or 3/16 inch I.D.
Last edited by CowboyBilly9Mile; May 30, 2003 at 09:01 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 306
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Engine knock - 4.0L engine
I've been thinking about decarboning the engine to get rid of my pinging before I put my new plugs in, but another thought came up. When you put the stuff into the throttle body, it burns it and spews nasty stuff out of the exhaust right? Is doing this going to clog the cats pretty bad? It seems like it would but maybe I'm missing something. Don't want to try it if it might clog the cats and make things worse. Maybe I should wait until I can justify a new exhaust system and put in a high flow cat and a gibson or something.
Okay, just re-read the post by Bob Ayers saying that it can ruin O2 sensors and clog/ruin the cat. Anyone else have some insight on this?
Brian J Wilson
Okay, just re-read the post by Bob Ayers saying that it can ruin O2 sensors and clog/ruin the cat. Anyone else have some insight on this?
Brian J Wilson
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,085
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From: West Chester PA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by CowboyBilly9Mile
As I recall, left front on the throttle body and the steel section has a "L" shape. Small fingers or a long needle nose pliers make removal/install easier. If needed, I can email a dig pic. The tipoff is this line runs to the canister purge. I also recall the tube being 5/32 or 3/16 inch I.D.
As I recall, left front on the throttle body and the steel section has a "L" shape. Small fingers or a long needle nose pliers make removal/install easier. If needed, I can email a dig pic. The tipoff is this line runs to the canister purge. I also recall the tube being 5/32 or 3/16 inch I.D.
If you wouldn't mind sending the picture...If you want to just em it to me, my address is adkima00@comcast.net (that's zero zero not oh oh).
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,940
Likes: 2
From: Eastern WA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Last edited by CowboyBilly9Mile; May 31, 2003 at 03:53 PM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: West Chester PA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Thanks! I'll let you know how it goes. I'm having a little trouble finding 3 cans of pm-3. My local ford dealer only had one (should have more this week) and the dealer by work doesn't carry it.....Oh well...the search continues...
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,940
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From: Eastern WA
Engine knock - 4.0L engine
Originally posted by brianjwilson
I've been thinking about decarboning the engine to get rid of my pinging before I put my new plugs in, but another thought came up. When you put the stuff into the throttle body, it burns it and spews nasty stuff out of the exhaust right? Is doing this going to clog the cats pretty bad? It seems like it would but maybe I'm missing something. Don't want to try it if it might clog the cats and make things worse. Maybe I should wait until I can justify a new exhaust system and put in a high flow cat and a gibson or something.
Okay, just re-read the post by Bob Ayers saying that it can ruin O2 sensors and clog/ruin the cat. Anyone else have some insight on this?
Brian J Wilson
I've been thinking about decarboning the engine to get rid of my pinging before I put my new plugs in, but another thought came up. When you put the stuff into the throttle body, it burns it and spews nasty stuff out of the exhaust right? Is doing this going to clog the cats pretty bad? It seems like it would but maybe I'm missing something. Don't want to try it if it might clog the cats and make things worse. Maybe I should wait until I can justify a new exhaust system and put in a high flow cat and a gibson or something.
Okay, just re-read the post by Bob Ayers saying that it can ruin O2 sensors and clog/ruin the cat. Anyone else have some insight on this?
Brian J Wilson
I have heard of no probs with clogged cats when the TSB is followed, however I really don't think you need to "warm up" the cat by using naptha. I kinda recall Bob's post but I think if you follow the TSB and use PM-3 you will be fine; I know I was. And after all, would Ford really want to create a new problem in these trucks only to have someone prove Ford wrong down the road? I kinda doubt it myself.