Transmission compatibility?
 

Hey all, this is just a quicky...

...But I found an ad for a 3 speed with overdrive(don't know if it's column or not), however, it is from a '65 ford with a 300ci I-6.....

Well, see, I have a '56 ford with a 223 I-6....Simply put, would these transmissions be interchangeable for these two years, or is that too far??

Thanks a lot(I really want an overdrive!)

In '65 that will be a 3 speed column shift with a switch for OD. IIRC it is a Borg Warner T85 trans, non-synchro 1st. (could be wrong on that number. Speaking of which, Numberdummy knows this one like the back of his hand...)

That being said, the thing to look at is the bell to trans pattern. Older units used a square pattern. Newer, about '65 and up, used a "butterfly" or more rectangular pattern. I know some transmissions had both patterns for a while, and would guess the 3 speed in question either retained the old pattern or had both. If a trans has only the later pattern, it can be drilled for the old pattern. There are pics of this here, 2nd pic down:

Toploader Imposters

If your '56 has a 3 speed, it is probably a BW unit, and after the pattern is confirmed either as the same or workable, the next question is input shaft length. Check the ID on your existing trans and search that out and compare once you know what the '65 trans id is.

FWIW, from what I see here, if that '65 unit works and is complete, switch and all, I'd grab it as those tend to go quick. Worst case is you have to sell it at a profit.

1953/64 F100 223/292's used the Borg Warner T-86 Overdrive.

1954/64 Passenger Cars with 223/239/272/292/312 also used T-86's.

1965/72 F100's 240/300/352/360/390 used Borg Warner T-85N's.

1964/67 Passenger Cars 352/390 also used T-85N's.

Both have a non syncro 1st gear.

The T-85N uses the butterfly shaped bolt pattern, and the T86 uses the square pattern (the lower right is offset a dash)

The T-85N is a top loader the T-86 has a side shifter plate.

If the input shaft diameter is different (which I doubt) it can be accomodated with a different pilot bushing.

The three things you might also want to check are:

Input shaft length - check the depth of each of the two bell housings on the vehicles;

Diameter of the front seal retainer base; and

Length of the transmission from the mounting face to the rear mount.

I don't think they are directly interchangeable.

Also, you would need to ensure that the seller of the T-85N HAS THE 12 VOLT OVERDRIVE RELAY AND SOLENOID that go with it - otherwise, forget it.

Uhhh, I'm such an idiot....

Can someone help me decipher what numberdummy and julie is trying to say :) .

From what I see, it wouldn't work......nuts.

And this also means that the trans in question is a floor shift.......nuts again.

Help?

Thanks everyone for pitching in!

If you want overdrive, you'll need the T-86, the T-85 will not fit a 223.

The T-86 is not that hard to find (the T-85 is hard to find!), as it was used in Ford cars/trucks with OHV engines from 1953 thru 1964.

It was also used in flatheads from 1948 thru 1953.

Sorry Julie, the T-85 is not a top loader, neither is the T86. Both these are column shifts.

The '65 F100 in my sig has a T-85, this was the only reason I bought the truck in the first place.

Hey, I just want to throw this out there...but, could I throw the 300 and the T-85 in my 56? Would the 65 300 bolt right up with all the mounts, I have a funny feeling that it wouldn't, but it's worth a try(the block/trans might be longer thus the mounts would be in wrong places or something like that...)

If I did find a T-86, would that be bolt in, or would I still have to modify stuff?

Thank you very much.

P.S.--Number dummy(or anybody out there) if T-86 and T-85 ar the codes for the overdrives, what are the codes for the trans that I don't need, or at least the one in my truck already("3spd-std").

FWIW, A buddy helped put a '67 Falcon three speed top loader (non overdrive) into my '55 Fairlane behind a 272. The driveshaft needed to be longer, and I believe the piece of the case that inserts into the bell housing (not the input shaft) needed to be machined so it would fit into the old bellhousing. The column shifter worked fine, but needed adjustment. He also needed to make a new clutch alignment tool because the universal kit didn't have one that fit.

I'm obviously confused Bill. I recall there being confusion during a previous thread about overdrives as well - so maybe you can straighten me out/

I would assume from your post above, that a 1966 Ford or Mercury would use a T-85N Overdrive transmission - right.

Here is the drawing of the Overdrive Transmission from my 1966 Ford and Mercury Shop Manual. It's the only overdrive transmission listed for use - so based on your info above I'm assuming it is a T-85N.

Attachment 14653

Am I wrong in my thought that this is a top loader? Or is a toploader a transmission that has the shift on top?

mORO- note the butterfly face on that picutre. What ever you want to call it The picture is of the Transmission you are thinking of buying.

Here is a picture of a standard light duty three speed. The face of the overdrive transmission is the same as this one.

Attachment 14654

Basically what Bill and I are tryin gto tell you is that the overdrive transmission you are thinking of buying is a later model than the one that was used on our trucks, and it has a different bolt on pattern and may be a different length, etc.

My comment about he 12 volt relay is this: An overdrive transmission has an electrical system to make it operate. That system has four parts: a solenoid; a governor; a kickdown switch; and a relay. The governor and kick down switch are not voltage sensative, and are readily available. The solenoid and relay are voltage sensative (although I've been told the 6 volt solenoid will work on a 12 vot system - the relay will not). The transmission you are looking at should have, and will need ,those 12 volt components to work. And they are extraordinarily difficult to find and are prohibitively expensive (although Bill will probably find a couple for $2 at Hongchoo's Ford parts in Katmandu just to be cute here).

The transmission you are looking at is fairly rare to find for sale - most of them have been snatched up by restorers. If it works and all the electrical parts are there, I'd buy it in a heart beat. You will be able to sell it for probably twice what you will pay for the one you need. Many of which are available.

I have a couple questions now.....

Not to sound repetative, but if I were to perchase the 300 I-6 along with the trans,...would anyone happen to know if the dementions of my 223 and the 65s 3000 be the same externally(meaning even the though the CI is bigger, it would still externally fit and hook up)?

And secondly, about what are the price ranges for this T-85 I'm looking at? What should I offer him? Obviously the condition would dictate that the most, but as of now, the only info on that, that I know of is that he can drive the truck.

I now remember about the drivshaft length being an issue, so I'll tkae that into consideration, I just hope the engine/trans mounts are in the right spots just in case I do try to install this stuff.

Thanks again all for the in-depth advice.

The last T-85N I saw sell - in perfect running condition, had been cleaned up, AND with all the electrical parts sold for about $550. That was 2 years ago.....If he doesn't have the electrical parts, you can use it as a boat anchor. Well, that's not quite true. Without the electrical parts, the overdrive can be locked using the mechanical lock out and used as a straight 3 speed - but the overdrive will not work. If it driveable, take it out for a drive and ask to engage the overdrive.

I guess you could put a 6 volt solenoid on it and use a 6 volt relay with a volta drop, but if you are going to do that, just get the T-86 and pay less for it.

Drive shafts are an fairly straightforward fix.

I'm not sure about the engine swaps.

Unless this is another thing that squirrels whispered in my ears while I was sleeping, the 300 mounts more like a SBF than the 223. That means you'll need to come up with new motor and transmission mounts. Not a big deal; Trans-dapt has SBF motor mount kits and crossmembers for most applications. The 300 may be longer than the 223 block. If so, the rad or firewall could need modifying. This wouldn't be an easy weekend swap... you'll need to shove the engine in and out a few times with the front sheetmetal off to get easy access to the frame.

You can count on needing a different length driveshaft... that can be a couple hundred bucks of machine shop work.

If the T85N is a top loader, then so is a T-86 as both cases look almost identical with the two selector levers on the side, parts come out of the top.

Julie is correct here, the T-86 is a SIDE loader.

Well...then so is a T-85, because the cases are identical in design.

Both have the selector levers on the side, both have removable top covers (gearshift housings).

B5AZ7222B .. T-86 Gearshaft Housing

C5TZ7222A .. T-85 Gearshift Housing