Help ... please.
 

Gentlemen, gentlemen ... we have WORK to do.

I can recall a time when gas was ar 30-40 CENTS a gallon (1960's/early 70's) - now please correct me if I am wrong - and I am weak in math - but I think there has been like a 1000% increase?!?!?!?!

There is MUCH we "C-A-N" - and BEST, "DO" - N-O-W!

1. This IS a FRIGGIN WAR BOYS - and we AIN'T WINNIN' IT! If you think it's not - or that "we" ARE "winning" keep munchin on your Doritos and check back with me in a (SHORT) couple years.

2. PLEASE INFORM YOUR WIVES/GIRLFRIEND'S/KIDS - (neighbors - WHOMEVA'), that MULTIPLE trips to the freakin' "MALL" (for Pete's sake) each week is KILLING US ... ALL of US!!! We're all "free" here - but some folks GROSS-"CONSUMPTION" (abuse) (and therefore LACK of "CONSERVATION") is infringing on my (and my friends/family) bottom-line - as well as YOURS and EVERYONE else's too. Can we please make those trips to get the hair & nails done COMBINED with the grocery-gettin', the dry-cleanin', and WHATEVER else we "need" to be doin' - all the time - out on the road. Ali Ba-bah (and his 40 thieves) are sucking the life out of all of us - and at the same time diverting our greenbacks into AK-47's and RPG's for the maggots (in addition to funding other maggots who are training - and getting educated - and wish us "virtual" harm - which is no longer "virtual" - THEY WANT MASS DESTRUCTION DONE TO OUR BANKING SYSTEMS WHICH WOULD INCLUDE OUR TECHNOLOGY [COMPUTER] SYSTEMS!).

3. Repeating - some of our enemies ARE "DOMESTIC". You happy sending "John Q. Exxon's" kids to the best universities while we struggle to get our kids into ANY school???????

4. This IS a war - you may think you are "safe" (financially "secure"), but that is EXACTLY what "they" would like for you (US) to think ... while they jerk us around by our hard-earned "possessions" - and continue to line THEIR pockets - and continue to cultivate plans to create chaos.

Ya know - I could go on & on & on & on about this BS - but for now - I'm gonna end on this note: IS there any chance - WHATSOEVER - that everyone who reads this post (and proceeds to tell 10 other people), could POSSIBLY "SAVE" one (1) gallon of fuel per week (?) - it's a rhetorical question guys - OF COURSE WE CAN!!! Thats' about 2-3 miles a day ... 15-20 miles a week. Want to get better "mileage" ... get a few million folks barkin' up THAT tree - and watch the price slide.

It's SIMPLE "supply & DEMAND" men ... WE ARE the ones to blame - but we ARE ALSO the one's that can FIX IT!!! WE ARE in control of this crap - though we are actually more OUT OF control - MUCH MORE -at the moment.

It was said to me (on another site) that there was "not much else" I could do to save fuel - HAH! That's absurd - I walk more (and am healthier - and happier - for it) I got a bike (and I use it) I DO "combine" trips (and therefore CONSERVE/SAVE MY fuel) - and watch me, I'll park this truck more and more as others PAY more & more ... but I can not single-handedly drop the price (FOR y-o-u) ... I'll need the assistance of several million of y-o-u.

Thanks,
Glenn ...

Dear Mr. Glen, (please read "entire" post before flaming)
Why didn't milions of Y-O-U back in the 60's do something then? last generation let it get this way, and now you want this generation to suffer for it by not being able to enjoy life as y'al ldid back in the "muscle car" era. Then came the oil shortage of the early 70's. Where was alternative fuels being produced then????
I agree with you on most points, don't get me wrong. But, I am getting a little tired of hearing about the gas GUZZLERS back when, with big cubic inches, cruizin' the carhop and strip. Now you want this generation to not cruise their vehicle which by a healthy percentage, get way better milage, so you cant try and pay a little less at the pump. Did you "always" walk???? Did you always ride a bike????
Yes, we do need to conserve and badly. But becareful on how high of a soap box from which you preach. It can be a painful fall.

Ok, theres my 2 cents worth. Flame away.............................................. ............

Oh, and by the way...

https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/...alotharxk3.jpg

666????
 

Great Googoly Moogoly!!! I agree with both points you guy's are trying to make!! I have cut way back from my trips out! I have also tried to keep my foot from opening up the PSD! Our government needs to do something about alternative fuels and the current gas prices, but... As long as we LOVE to drive, there will be no price wars! I'll follow this thread for as long as it goes, especially since he got post #666 as a rant and rave... GOD BLESS US ALL!

There is definitely a lot of truth in these posts. Unfortunately, there are a lot of truths that people don't include. For instance, citing 30-40 cents a gallon for gasoline in the 60's-70's is a very bad example and very misleading. If you look at the cost of living and inflation, then gasoline hasn't gone up in price nearly as much a much of the food we eat, the cars themselves, house prices, etc... Gas may have gone up 5 times as much as in the 60's, but house prices have gone up closer to 10 times as much. Plus, our pay has gone up more than 5 times as much. So, in reality, gasoline prices have actually gone down. (Yes, I took stats in college too)

Another thing is; I have lived and/or worked in 14 countries. With the exception of the oil producing countries such as the middle east, the price of gasoline in the United States is still by far cheaper than most of the world. In Europe try $6-$7 a gallon in US Dollars.

Another truth is; if you remember the 60's-70's, then as mentioned, why didn't you do something about this problem then. I am part of that generation also, but I agree. You can believe that some of us are selfish because we like to drive our cars/trucks/suv's for more than just transportation. We also drive them for recreation. Well, that's my right. A lot of good men and woman have fought and died so i could have such rights. You can't have the "Peace and Love and Bobby Sherman" attitude during your growing years and then condemn the next generation for you being lazy. As long as I can afford it, I will drive my 1994 Ford F250 with the 460 V8, getting 10mpg as much as I want.

Now, on a more positive note, I actually don't mind the price of gasoline going up so much. Americans, and especially the original poster, are definitely somewhat selfish. We were brought up to believe that we could have or achieve anything we wanted. There is nothing wrong with that. If the price of gasoline stays low, we will continue to burn it without a thought. The higher the prices go, the more people will automatically start driving less. Purely for economic reasons. Instead of taking the 10mpg pickup to work, maybe they take the ford focus that gets 26mpg in town. In their effort to save some money, they will help the environment. Less people will buy the SUV type vehicles and aim more towards the more gas efficient cars. Also, until the price of gasoline is considered too high by the consumer, any serious effort to design alternative fuels or energy will not be cost effective.

So I personally think higher gas prices will ultimately be better for the environment and the economy. (Of course I don't believe that fossil fuels are the biggest problem towards global warming either. That's just an excuse). So, I suggest that if the original poster feels so passionate about the gas prices, then you need to sell your cars and buy yourself a toyota prius or other hybrid at the very least. Don't give us this crap about combining our trips and being more concious. Life is too short. I love to drive my vehicles. From my 1966 Mustang with the 289 to the F250 with the 460. I enjoy it, and i'm not going to stop driving because you feel infringed on. Especially considering how much you could have done in the last 30-40 years. Too many people complaining, yet they don't know what they are fighting for. Most people don't even realize that if ethanol wasn't subsidized by the federal governement to the farmers, that E85 ethanol fuel would cost almost $5 a gallon. Or the fact that it takes fossil fuels to process and make the ethanol. And that ethanol is not that efficient as a fuel. Or that it's very corrosive. Then again, that is a totally different subject. Glenn, if you want to make a difference, take care of your own family and don't worry about the rest of us. Then you won't be infringing on MY rights. Later.... Mike.....

Take a look at how much a gallon of milk costs or that silly fancy hot chocolate drink my kid loves to drink when we are at a Borders book store. Fuel prices here really aren't that bad when you think about what they have to do to get it to the consumers. Drive on friends, Drive on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=christcorp]There is definitely a lot of truth in these posts. Unfortunately, there are a lot of truths that people don't include. For instance, citing 30-40 cents a gallon for gasoline in the 60's-70's is a very bad example and very misleading. If you look at the cost of living and inflation, then gasoline hasn't gone up in price nearly as much a much of the food we eat, the cars themselves, house prices, etc... Gas may have gone up 5 times as much as in the 60's, but house prices have gone up closer to 10 times as much. Plus, our pay has gone up more than 5 times as much. So, in reality, gasoline prices have actually gone down. (Yes, I took stats in college too)

Hey "Collegiate-Mike"!!!!

Your post here barely dignifies a response - but I suppose I asked for it.

Homes, food - these are staples (people actually "NEED" them), and are APPRECIABLE ... WORTH something. "Gas" is EXACTLY that "G-A-S" (an ever-so-slight oversimplification) - really not much different (at all) than that which emits from our BOWELS. The reason it is more "expensive" (no, what a minute - you said the price has "actually gone down") is basically SIMPLE "Supply & DEMAND" (do they still teach that in school??).

Another thing is; I have lived and/or worked in 14 countries.

Doesn't matter where anyone has lived and/or worked - anyone that is able to read (or ask a simple question for that matter) can ascertain the price of "petrol" at any point on the globe - at anytime (day or night ... new invention: "Internet" ... "World-WIDE-web" - check it out).

With the exception of the oil producing countries such as the middle east, the price of gasoline in the United States is still by far cheaper than most of the world. In Europe try $6-$7 a gallon in US Dollars.

"News" Flash.

Another truth is; if you remember the 60's-70's, then as mentioned, why didn't you do something about this problem then.

This is a "truth"?? Sounds more like a "question" to me ... without a question mark I might add. I did (my part) - the (VAST) "Majority" did NOT. Besides, crooks in Washington continue to "wag" us as that which protrudes beyond a dogs @$$.

I am part of that generation also, but I agree.

?!?

You can believe that some of us are selfish because we like to drive our cars/trucks/suv's for more than just transportation. We also drive them for recreation.

I do not believe that 'some are selfish' because they "like" to drive their vehicles for more than transportation (I "like" to too) ... I believe (I WELL "KNOW") that "SOME" ARE COMPLETE IMBECILES as Wal*Mart and their ilk (take your pick - how about "Big Business" ... and the slick-sters on Wall St. and Madison Avenue ) OWNS "SOME" of these "individuals" (rather "groups" - unfortunately) by virtue of the fact that they are lead around by their collective proboscis like puppies on a leash due to they're COVETOUS nature: "Look honey, there's a "new" (and "improved" - yeah right) "slicer/dicer" at Wally-World" ... "looks good sweetie - I'll go warm-up the truck - and as soon as we get back, you can take the truck back over to the same freakin' part of town to get your DAMNED nails manicured - even though you have an appointment at the same place (again) tomorrow to get your freakin' hair done"!!!. Point?

This errant nonsensical silliness doesn't warrant another second of my time at the moment - I will get back to it though ...

TOUGHLover:
As much as I hate to say it, the very same Wal-Mart that you seem to dislike so much may very well be doing a favor to the movement toward energy conservation. Lately, Wal-Mart has been pushing compact fluorescent bulbs, which use about 20% of the energy of an incandescent bulb IIRC. With Wal-Marts huge customer base, the potential exists for meaningful energy savings just by convincing their customers to buy CF's.



I thought his post was very well written and I see no need for you to insult him or his opinion. And you did ask for it by writing a difficult to read, barely coherent post.

I guess the reason for my response, which was not intended to be mean spirited but more so to be non-emotional, was because the original post seemed to be concentrating on the COST/PRICE of gasoline. Had the OP been emphasizing on the ecology, global warming, polution, etc... then my response would have been totally different. Those areas are definitely opinionated with with valid points on both sides of the isle.

Arguing conservation strictly for personal/national economic reasons however is a different position all together. I consider gas to be a staple just like milk, bread, food, heating oil, etc...Our personal lives can not exist in it's current state without gasoline. You couldn't have the job you do, probably, without gasoline to get there. Either your POV or public transportation.

Then again, because we live in a free society where MOST of the time the minority doesn't get to dictate the majority; I.e we vote for representation. Even private consumables such as cigarettes, beer, wine, etc... are a person's right to purchase and consume. Gasoline is in no way different. If you think that your rights are being infringed on because my use of gasoline keeps the price higher and you are having a difficult time paying for it, then I don't know what to tell you. Get a second job maybe. The price of gasoline is no where near as high as the other consumer products I go through regularly. I might pay $30 a week in gasoline, but I pay more than that for soda, beer, cigarettes, and other things I probably don't need. If we all drank water instead of Coke/Pepsi/Coors/milk, then maybe the price of those would also go down. We definitely don't need those items. Especially compared to gasoline.

Now, if we want to talk about the ecological ramifications locally and globally, then that's a totally different topic all together. This is where the 2 sided sword comes in to play. Higher gasoline prices do in fact make some folks slow down their consumption. Higher prices make alternative fuels and more fuel efficient vehicles more affordable and practical. Higher prices in gasoline will spur more research into renewable forms of energy and is better for our planet.

If you want to discuss the affects of gasoline on our nation/world when it comes to global damage, then that is a worthy debate. To even discuss/debate reducing the use of gasoline as a means of improving a person's economic position, is also admirable. To argue however that outside countries, big business, and those who use more gasoline than you would like are keeping the price inflated and that is affecting your economic position, and infringing on your personal liberties is purely a selfish endeavor. What about you infringing on some of our liberties to live our lives as we desire. Maybe that means taking RV vacations a couple of times a year, at 6-7mpg, instead of public transportation. Maybe that means taking our boats out to the lake and fishing or water skiing. Maybe it's just the "Convenience and Freedom" to come and go as we please; which might mean my wife, I, and the kids don't want to all shop at the same stores so sometimes we all take individual vehicles.

The point is; there are many ways to ask the same question. You didn't ask that as Americans we should reduce our gasoline usage for some noble common good. You pretty much insisted that we do it because you personally didn't like the price of gas, didn't want to pay the high prices, and felt that you were being infringed on. This topic is not a personal attack either way. We don't know each other, so if you take it personally, then that is something you have to deal with. I don't take forum posts personally. The fact is; percentage wise, most of us pay less now for gasoline than we did many years ago. We pay more each week for other consumer goods that we need even less than gasoline. Because of our ability to drill, refine, trade, and negotiate many other products and services, gasoline prices are much cheaper here. Because of the higher prices in Europe and other places, they have been able to develope vehicles which get much better gas mileage. So, in the big scope of things, I still contend that higher gasoline prices can have a very positive affect on our country moving torwards alternative forms of energy and better standard of living for not just us, but for the entire planet. Later.... Mike.....

bad stats and facts
 

MikeCorp, okay you took stats in college.....did you by chance do poorly in that class ? We have a couple of possibilities. Either some folks just don't understand the stats or they are cherry picking numbers to make the case look differant than it really is. I really get tired of folks trying to explain how gasoline is cheaper now. It isn't. I don't remember the year, but when I worked for $2.17 an hour, gasoline cost me 34 cents per gallon. That means I was able to purchase 6.38 gallons per hour of work. Now, I get paid 12$ per hour of work, and gasoline is 3.29 per gallon- so I can only purchase 3.65 gallons per hour of work. Seems more exspensive to me. I am not sure why some folks feel the need to mention europe's gasoline prices... the big differance is mostly taxes, and their whole culture and social structure is differant. They just don't compare. Most of TOUGH's suggestions are already happening at this house, from economic nessesity.
Then, whats up with all of the incorrect 'information' on ethanol ? Ehtnaol currently has a 51 cent per gallon tax credit- how does that bring the price down below gasoline from a supposed start of 5$ per gallon ? Takes fossil fuel to produce ? Doesn't have to- where are you getting these ideas ? I like the new distillery in Texas that runs on cow pies from the dairy farm next door. Not that efficient ? It burns with better TE than gasoline.... what is the problem ? Very corrosive ? No.....ethanol has a PH of 6.0 to 8.0, depending on how much water is in it. Neutral is 7.0. Ethanol is even drinkable. Did some wild & stupid things with it in my younger days, but it didn't corrode my insides.
Yes, TOUGH is correct, we are in a war. But it isn't the war many folks think that it is. The API and the major oil companies and your government ( if you're in the us of a ) are at war, economically, with YOU. As I see it, it is freedom V fascism. But that would get us into the political stuff, and we shouldn't go there. DinosaurFan, on work's old cast off 'puter

I'll just throw this out there and then sit back.
The only way a capitalist society values ANYTHING is by how much it costs. Clearly the people on this forum value fuel quite a bit, if the number of posts is anything to go by.

Some people only believe what they have been taught. Some on the other hand do not fit the average and will not be in the norm. That is understandable. 1st, let's clarify something. I rarely if ever use words like "ALL, ALWAYS, EVERYONE" or any other definitive word. There are exceptions to every rule. I DID say that most of us are paying less for gas based on percentage. Here is an individual who has kept records of his gas purchases since 1979. Damn, that takes discipline. Anyway, he includes all the raw data as well as taking into consideration inflation. His sources are reputable. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. Based on his own data, you can see that with the cost of inflation, gas prices haven't gone up that much. And don't think it weird that this individual kept records of all his gas purchases. That's a lot more common that one might think. My parents write down the gallons, the cost, and the mileage on every fillup. The keep a small ledger in the glove box. They've been doing it for more than 30 years. So has many others.
http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html

In 1979, gas averaged about $0.80 a gallon. That however was right at the end of the so called "Gas Shortage". Prior to that it was definitely cheaper. I am truly sorry that your income has not gone up proportionately to most of the country. In 1979, the median income was about $16,461.00 . I personally didn't make that much then, but I do however make more than 4 times that much now. So is the average income. 4 times the average price for gas would make it about the same also. Again, this is average.

I will say however that gasoline obviously hurts the lower income folks a lot more than the middle and upper income. With most commodities, a consumer can choose the brand and level of quality he or she pays for. I.e. Buy Mercedes or a Ford Focus. A Sony TV or a Philips/RCA. Levis or Old Glory, etc... Gasoline however is the same pretty much for everyone. That does suck for the lower income folks.

I won't counter all of your comments, because most are out of emotion. I will say however that it does take fossil fuels to produce ethanol. Everything from the combines and plows planting and harvesting to shipping, and to some extent even the refining. Also, ethanol is subsidized not only with the $0.50+ cents a gallon, but because 20% of the US's corn supply has been used to make ethanol, corn prices for consumers have gone up 80%. Here is a pretty good article from Businessweek. http://www.businessweek.com/debatero...l_too_muc.html

You are going to get a lot of high press on how great ethanol is. And, because the government promotes it, it must be good for us and the environment. But that's not what the original poster was commenting on. They believe that we are in a war with the government, big business, the oil companies, etc... I personally don't buy it. I think it sucks that the price of gas has gone up so much and that some people get hit really hard by it. I don't however think it's some war against the American population. Part of the problem is that because of the ultra left environmentalists, we haven't been able to significantly build any real refineries in quite a long time. That makes the price of refining the petrolium a lot more.

Also, if the subsidies to the farmers were taken away for ethanol completely, and given instead to independent research on alternative fuels and renewable energy sources, we wouldn't be having these issues. Take all that money and give it to Universities and private non energy companies to develope other alternatives. The corn prices would go down. Other uses for corn could be used. Most farms and farmers aren't the family owned mom and pops any longer anyway, They are the Archer Daniels Midland ADM, VeraSun Energy VSE type companies that are the largest methanol manufacturers. I'm not saying that ethanol is totally without merit. On the contrary. It is better than nothing as far as the environment goes. But as far as individual economics go, it is the wrong direction.

So, believe what you want. We all do anyway. I don't apologise to anyone for having become successful and well off. I'm not sorry that I can afford most of what life has to offer. I started off dirt poor in the cities of New York and New Jersey. I definitely conserve energy when I can. NOT FOR THE ECONOMICS, but for the ecology. Definitely not for the economy of others. Not that I am selfish and don't care about others. Just that I know what I have given up to get where I am today. Plus, if the price gets too high, then hopefully people like you and the original poster, and millions of others will direct your frustration and complaints where it will do the most good. At your political representatives. Force them to make the change. They are the only ones who can. If they won't cooperate and listen to your grievences, then take your voice to the media. Reducing consumption only takes away certain people's freedoms temporarily. It doesn't really hurt the oil companies. Get the government to invest their subsidies in alternative energy research. Not ethanol, that even the proponents say is only a band-aid at the very best. Get the courts to losen up on patents and infringements. The list goes on forever of the things we can do to fix our gasoline problem. Asking each other to use less of it is not the answer. Sorry, but that's my opinion and we are all allowed that right. (Thank the men and woman who gave all for us). Later... Mike....

QUOTE: Well, that's my right. A lot of good men and woman have fought and died so i could have such rights.

Seems you have your "rights" and your "privileges" mixed-up there Mikey-boy. The "good" people who have fought (and ARE fighting) and have died (and ARE DYING!!!) have the "rights" (you so wantonly claim for your-SELF! - Unless you have SERVED, you really "need" -... and I'm not at all in the habit of telling folks what they "need" ... but you'd do well to not ever speak like that - EVER, again) - you Mike, have "privileges" (though by all means, PLEASE feel "FREE" to exercise your "RIGHT" to REMAIN SILENT ... OFTEN!). Now, further, you seem to take great pleasure in sucking-up all the gasoline you can possibly pump. You are now sucking-off of the honor - THE VERY LIVES - of courageous warriors (oh and by the way "college"-boy, you've misspelled "women" - TWICE now - from what I've noticed in quick glances at your insipid verbosity - in addition to blatant contradictions and other errors ... I'd demand the money back from the college - ESPECIALLY as this site has a built-in SPELL-CHECK!). Might there be anything else you specifically suck, or do you just basically suck in general??


QUOTE: You can't have the "Peace and Love and Bobby Sherman" attitude during your growing years Whaddya got a Time-Machine or something to have ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER as to the "attitude" someone, that you did not have the pleasure of knowing, HAD during their "growing years"?? Whaddya HIGH?!?!?!?! Are you sucking Bobby Sherman too?!?

QUOTE: and then condemn the next generation for you being lazy. "Condemn" a generation?? Who said anything about condemning a generation??? Oh, perhaps I did that during a "lazy"-brained moment ... YOU know how that is - he says, rhetorically. Oh, and by the way, if you'd like to tell me what I can or "can't" do - you'll need to come to VA ... though I could meet you in the DC area as I (unfortunately) have family near there. The comments I made in the original post were "suggestions" - to benefit the masses - not this one-on-one attack crap of yours - but that's fine if you think you're up to the task.

Quote: As long as I can afford it, I will drive my 1994 Ford F250 with the 460 V8, getting 10mpg as much as I want. Ahhh, one of those 'cut your nose off to spite your face' guys. Brilliant!

Look, unfortunately , I am laughing too hard now (to keep from crying I think), and frankly don't have the time, to carry-on with this JOKE of yours tonight - but when I get "emotional" again (oh and I will as long as YOU MACH me AND ALL the Brave Veterans of this "experiment" of a nation we have - and additionally, as YOU continue-on in your swine-like ways, continuing to SUCK off of MILLIONS of hard-working, less "fortunate" and less "privileged" individuals, than YOUR SELFish-@SSED S-E-L-F ) - I'LL BE "BACH"!.

Nightie-night Mr. Mikey ... (sleep well [for now] - careful not to let your "consumption" CHOKE THE LIVING ***** OUT OF Y-O-U BIG-BOY!).

Man Alive, another rocket-scientist.

"Mr. Wal*Mart" (whatever the jackasses name is - the CEO) made like $23 million in base-salary alone (I believe it was) last year, while the "average", "typical" Wal*Mart employee makes, what, $8-$9.00 an hour!??! Plenty of his employees are having trouble affording the fuel just to get to his piece of garbage MONOPOLY (just so they can WORK to afford some more fuel to get to and fro his piece of garbage MONOPOLY!) - is he doing them a "favor" as well by employing them?? Would you PLEASE read-back your own post (uh, to yourself)?? Are you familiar with the expression; "Wag the Dog"?? That's what's goin' on here palsie-walsie. You were correct in saying they're "pushing" (just like the COMMON dope-dealer on the corner) - but they're not doing ANY "favors". Know that man ... KNOW THAT.

If you REALLY "think" they are, I'm CERTAIN I can find you some swamp land to build your NEXT "house-of-cards" on as well.

Look, I really detest being rude and nasty - I really do, it's just that I am DONE with the LIE(S). This is a "war" here man - an ADULTERATED assault (and IN-sult) on/to the public. I mean, we've got Mr. "Well-Off" (see above) out in Cheyenne, WY (I don't know, perhaps 65-70K is "well-off" for that region?? - been awhile since he's been living in the "cities of New York & New Jersey ) who seems a disciple (a minion ... rather, a "lemming", is more like it) of the government and Big Business ... sheesh - it's a crock man ... it is a CROCK!

Man I gotta get some shut-eye ... gotta gear-up for the "fight" with MY government, and BIG-BIZ (as well as all the other "extremism"), yet again tomorrow.

OK TOUGHLover. I'll make this very short because it's late, and you have pulled on the wrong straw!!!

1st; This is a forum, so I don't apologize for spelling errors. I don't take the time to spell check every post. Especially around midnight. It has absolutely nothing to do with or reflect on my college education. (3 degrees if it matters to you. Electronic Engineering, Computer Science, and Psychology). Grammar is a different story however, but I don't spend the extra time doing spell check.

2nd; Unless you DO KNOW what the hell you are talking about, I suggest you back down and eat your crow. I recently "Retired" after 21 years in the Air Force. 2 tours to the middle east. Lived/worked/visited 14 countries. Including those in South America, Central America, Europe, Med, and the Middle East. I HAVE PAID MY Dues. And I and others did not serve just so WE COULD have rights and the rest of America could have PRIVILEDGES. We served so that EVERY citizen of the USA could exercise the rights and freedoms afforded to all in the constitution and the bill of rights. Including your RIGHT to free speech.

You want to debate? Excellent! I suggest you stick with something you know about. Maybe your own economics. Afterall, that is what this thread is all about anyway. Your concern with your own economics. It doesn't have anything to do with the ecology, our nation, or the men and women in uniform. Later... Mike....