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-   1999 - 2003 7.3L Power Stroke Diesel (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum31/)
-   -   Stage one or stage 2 injectors? (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1331208-stage-one-or-stage-2-injectors.html)

cabloom300 08-18-2014 07:22 AM

Stage one or stage 2 injectors?
 
I think after doing some research I want to go with rosewood injectors and I see that rosewood sells there stage 1 and 2's for the same price. Would I be dumb not to go with the bigger injectors? I really only daily drive the truck and tow 7-11k no racing/sled pulling etc. I don't think I need more than a stage 1 or 1.5 but if it's the same price I thought I should consider it. Also I don't plan on running an after market turbo anytime soon so stock air and oil is what I have right now. Any suggestions? Thanks

Tugly 08-18-2014 08:52 AM

Stage 1 injectors (assuming IH AC160/stock) were engineered for the T444E High Output (Navistar's version of this engine). People who thought they wanted more (like me) went with bigger nozzles (Stinky has stage IIs - IH 160s with 100% nozzles).

Well... as He Man would say "I have the power!", but Stinky said "You want me to do what? With this!?". Almost every component attached to the engine or the drive train (including the suspension) needed beefing up to accept my little surprise gift to Da Big Stink.

Based on my experience and your stated goals, I would go with Stage 1s in your situation - but you're still going to need good air if you put in a tune that uses all the available capacity of the injector. The other option is to go big and have your tuner dial it down, but idle is tricky with bigger nozzles - you may have to tolerate a choppy idle, or have it live-tuned.

That's one opinion... you still need more.

Toreador_Diesel 08-18-2014 09:17 AM

For what you plan on doing, Stage 1 injectors or even Stage 1.5 injectors should accomplish what you're looking for. I run Stage 1 injectors in my 7.3 Excursion and between the Gearhead tunes and 38R, my truck is a well tuned Monster that can get down the road and more effortlessly tow whatever I put behind it.

Stock oil isn't a problem because Single Shot injectors consume less oil compared to the stock Splits anyhow.

While you can get away with the stock turbo, I'd suggest upgrading the turbo some. There are 3 ways to do so:

-Option "A" Upgrade the stock turbo:

Riffraff Diesel's Billet Wheel will feed the injectors all the air they will need and actually make the turbo more efficient: Riffraff Diesel Billet Compressor Wheel 94-03 - Riffraff Diesel Performance

If you don't use your EBPV or your pedestal is leaking, you can replace it with a blank pedestal and get more airflow on the exhaust side of the turbo:
Garrett Non-EBPV/ Blank Pedestal 99.5-03 - Riffraff Diesel Performance

You'll also need this to delete the butterly valve on the turbo: Garrett GTP38 High Flow Outlet - Riffraff Diesel Performance

-Option "B" Get a Van turbo, rebuild with a Ported Compressor housing and billet wheel.

Exhaust adapter: 1.0 A/R 1.15 A/R 3 Bolt Turbo Outlet Adapter - Riffraff Diesel Performance

Compressor housing: ATS Ported Compressor Housing - Riffraff Diesel Performance

Billet Compressor wheel: Riffraff Diesel Billet Compressor Wheel - Ported Housing - Riffraff Diesel Performance

Option "A" and "B" are rebuildable, I, however, went with Option "C":

Garrett GTP38R PowerMax Ball Bearing Turbo - Riffraff Diesel Performance

This is a drop in option that doesn't require any modification of up-pipes. As it's a ball bearing turbo, it there is little to no lag. The ONLY downside is that IF it breaks, it's not rebuildable. I got mine cheap, so if it does decide to break, will I be heartbroken, yes...but I'll either get another one or build myself a Van turbo in the meantime.

No matter what injector you go with, I'd also get Riffraff's Frx to make sure your fuel system can keep up with the injectors: Fuel Rail Crossover? (FRx) - Riffraff Diesel Performance

You'll also need tunes, good tunes with good customer service behind them:

https://gearheadautomotiveperformanc...uning-Products

Custom chips for your Ford 7.3 Powerstroke

http://www.brianstruckshop.com/

Matt and Tony use the PHP Hydra which is good for if you need to have adjustments made to your tunes, but you're not in a position or even close enough to your tuner to have your truck live tuned. The above three is who I'd recommend to tune for your injectors. While you can't go wrong with any of the above, check out their website, talk to them individually, and get a feel for who will give you what you're looking for.

Tugly 08-18-2014 03:26 PM

Great post, Toreador_Diesel... but I would amend that tuner list a little. Brian at Brian's Transmission Service has good tunes, I just don't know if he's tuning on the Hydra. I would drop PHP off the list for customer service reasons. Without dwelling long on this - I heard the rumors of poor customer service, and I personally learned they were not just rumors.

BWST 08-18-2014 04:31 PM

I was going to go with stage 1's based on research here and Tugly's experience having to add so much to handle the stage 2's. Franko72 is happy with his rosewood stage 1's, and is a good source to talk to about it. He does have 4:10's verses our SRW 3.73s, so that will be a difference to account for.

When the time came for injectors, I was going to install stage 1's, and continue with DP and the F6 I was using initially and see how it went, figuring I could get the rig dialed in over the phone, with stock nozzles keeping the idle in check.

I already had the intake and exhaust mods, and upgraded the stock turbo with the ported housing and EBPV delete, so the plan was with new injectors to add the Riffraff billet wheel for ported housings, and a 1.0 A/R exhaust housing, and run it that way. Clay was telling me anything beyond stage 1's, he'd recommend going to the 38R. If you have not done any turbo mods yet, I'd be tempted to suggest you follow Toreador_Diesel and put in the 38R.

Gaugepro 08-18-2014 05:03 PM

Why are you refering to injectors in stages...

CC x 1000 shots and nozzle. Anything else is just "pissing" in the wind.

Pick a HP goal and build from there. You mention the stock turbo staying, IMHO that limits you to a 160/0 injector without smoke and EGT issues. Adding a Billet compressor wheel will help a bit as well...

Beyond that, built trans, gauges (fuel pressure a must IMHO) and all the other standard mods.

I have no issue getting Bill, Jay or likes on the phone or email from PHP. They also offer the best "Chip" or hardware on the market with the Hydra. Of course you can get the Hydra from any number of vendors out there.

Best Daily Driver/Work Truck/Play toy set up that is not a maintenance pig.

Intake
Exhaust
Quad pod gauges with EGT, Boost, Trans temp and Fuel Pressure
38R
160/100 injectors.

350-400hp is a nice fun truck to drive.

Dan V 08-18-2014 05:14 PM

Good post GaugePro!

cabloom300 08-18-2014 05:51 PM

I do have gauges and I have a gen 1 original wicked wheel. The truck is a stick as well. I am not against turbo mods I just do know if il have the funding after dropping money on Injectors. I already have a 5 pos chip with gear head tunes on it but it's not in the truck at the moment. I will keep it out until I have him retune. Maybe I should save up and do the turbo mods or 38r and and be done with it. I guess if I keep the stock turbo I should stay with the 160/0 since towing will be in the works. Thanks for the suggestions

Gaugepro 08-18-2014 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabloom300 (Post 14593546)
I do have gauges and I have a gen 1 original wicked wheel. The truck is a stick as well. I am not against turbo mods I just do know if il have the funding after dropping money on Injectors. I already have a 5 pos chip with gear head tunes on it but it's not in the truck at the moment. I will keep it out until I have him retune. Maybe I should save up and do the turbo mods or 38r and and be done with it. I guess if I keep the stock turbo I should stay with the 160/0 since towing will be in the works. Thanks for the suggestions

With a 6 speed I would save for a clutch.

Do the turbo mods/38R first, then clutch, then injectors...

white Buffalo 08-18-2014 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaugepro (Post 14593414)
Pick a HP goal and build from there..................

I agree with Joe - pick a HP goal.

review the options to get to that goal (turbo, Inj, reg return, pre-pump & intake mods, clutch & other supporting mods).

Decide on 2 or 3 courses of action

Throw it out there for some advice & opinions.

Start with the supporting mods & getting everything as close to 100% before adding injectors. No problem with doing the turbo first and injectors later.

The hardest part is deciding on a plan.

white Buffalo 08-18-2014 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabloom300 (Post 14592023)
I think after doing some research I want to go with rosewood injectors and I see that rosewood sells there stage 1 and 2's for the same price. ............

Which stage I's and stage II's are you comparing? If you plan to keep your stock HPOP The Stage 1 and 1.5 single shots Jim has listed will do nicely, not sure it will hold up with the either of the stage 2 options - same with the turbo. The stock turbo would definitely benefit from some modification no matter which injectors you choose, especially when towing.

You will get a good 50+ HP bump in power and a definite increase in the fun factor with the stage 1 or 1.5's and some good programs from your tuner Matt.

I really like how my F-250 pulls the 5th wheel with "stage 1's" (175cc with stock nozzles) & van turbo.....has worked well for me the past 8+ years.

River19 08-18-2014 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabloom300 (Post 14593546)
I do have gauges and I have a gen 1 original wicked wheel. The truck is a stick as well. I am not against turbo mods I just do know if il have the funding after dropping money on Injectors. I already have a 5 pos chip with gear head tunes on it but it's not in the truck at the moment. I will keep it out until I have him retune. Maybe I should save up and do the turbo mods or 38r and and be done with it. I guess if I keep the stock turbo I should stay with the 160/0 since towing will be in the works. Thanks for the suggestions

I might be wrong about this, but with a stick, I would make sure you do your homework on any turbo upgrades to make sure you will be happy with the setup and not drop way the heck out of the boost with each shift.

If/when I replace my stock split shots, I'm going new 160/0 as 325-350 rwhp with nice towing manners would be more than fine with me. I don't have time or patience for a maintenance time suck......

Franko72 08-18-2014 08:11 PM

Personally I would go with a stage 1. If your truck is a dd keep it simple & reliable.
Jim @ Rosewood knows his injectors & is great to talk with. I'm happy that I chose him to rebuild my worn out originals.
Tuning will make all the difference how your truck will start, idle and run in traffic. Pick your favorite and he'll get you all set up to run SS's.
Other than a slightly different sound (I call it slightly OBS-ish) my stage 1's run like a stock truck In Traffic. On the highway and when you pour the coal to her they really shine.

I've ridden in some heavily modified trucks (Roland comes to mind :) )and the grin they give you is priceless. However, as a dd stage 1's will treat you right and keep you away from the diesel pumps.
And....if you find yourself on a cross country road trip and God forbid ever need an injector, you'll be able to walk into any International dealer and walk out with an "AC" injector in your hand instead of waiting till Monday to call your injector builder...
Something to consider.

Tugly 08-18-2014 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaugepro (Post 14593414)
Why are you refering to injectors in stages...

CC x 1000 shots and nozzle. Anything else is just "pissing" in the wind.

I have no issue getting Bill, Jay or likes on the phone or email from PHP.

The "stages" were specified in my post, and it's easier to type (or say) "Stage 1" than it is to type (or say) IH AC 160/Stock... since you asked so nicely.

I'm glad Bill answers your call when your number shows up on the caller ID, and he responds quickly to your email address. It's encouraging to know Bill has the capacity to provide such service - but I have not experienced that (multiple events). Feel free to call me unqualified to receive such service, but I'm entirely qualified to know (and share) when I don't. Reaching him was a pain, but his stuff reaching my truck was off-the-chart bad. I ended up going through a third party for my last item, thinking Bill didn't like me. That didn't work either. He either figured out my ploy, or his customer service needs some polish.

KJNDIVER 08-18-2014 09:42 PM

While on the subject and following advice, next year i plan to do some injectors and was hoping for thta 350-400 hp range. Less than 400 for fears of the PMRs, is that still the "threshhold" on the PMRs? What would a 160/30 realistically produce? 350? 375? I think if i can get in the 375 range that would be the cats pajamas..... Would the ww2 support that? Or would need to upgrade turbo?


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