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-   -   Thoughts on this wvo setup (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1202447-thoughts-on-this-wvo-setup.html)

sean23johnson 11-11-2012 08:16 PM

Thoughts on this wvo setup
 
Now this is something I wondered about from day one. Everyone seems to build a completely separate fuel system for their wvo setup. But is that really needed?Why can't I just tap into the existing fuel system and run my wvo thought it?

So here is my plan, i want to use two 3 way solenoids and plumb them into the factory feed and return lines right before the factory fuel pump. Obviously I will be running a hotfox or something like that to preheat the oil. That's really about it.

The reason I was thinking this route is because I don't really need to run wvo for my daily commute. I only travel 22mi round trip for work 4 days a week. I really want the wvo for longer trips up to the mountains and for going 4wheeling.

Thoughts??

Christof13T 11-12-2012 09:05 AM

The general consensus indicates running wvo thru your oem fuel system is a bad idea. The oil can polymerize and cause blockages that you cant really get to and clean out... so you end up chasing and changing out fuel system.
Heated pickup alone probably isnt enough to maintain temperature to injectors. For safety sake you want a good 160*f. Some guys say higher.
There are lots of write ups on how guys did their coolant heat exchangers and switching. Its important not to mix your diesel and wvo. Seperate filtration is also a wise option to consider.
Its well documented how to make this work safely for a very long time.
Its also well documented how it doesnt work... and can kill an engine if the wrong shortcuts are taken.

Important things to implement in your onboard system:
Seperate d2/wvo tanks
Seperate pump and filter for each tank.
Seperate fuel lines to the engine where you will tap in AFTER the fuel bowl. Or into the aux fuel ports on the heads.
Implement one way check valves on your oem fuel lines before the wvo tap, or at the heads ifyou run your wvo to the aux ports.
Timed fuel switching on the return fuel... so your d2 has time to return to the d2 tank whole the wvo pushes it out, and visa versa with purging wvo while switching back to d2.
HEAT : you must have a steady, stable heat source to get the oil to the right viscosity to safely run in your motor. The best way to achieve this is by using your engine coolant as a heat source. It warms up quickly after startup and you can switch on the fly running down the road once it gets to temp. Just remember to flip the switch back to d2 30 seconds or so before pulling in to work/home and drive on wvo all the time.

SkySkiJason 11-12-2012 10:12 AM

Is the idea to save money? Like I said in email, a DIY 2-tank conversion can be done pretty inexpensively. This is a 'proven recipe' with millions of successful miles on it now. Statistically, those with issues/problems doing what you propose are exponentially higher than the success rate. Yes, the Vegistroke system is the cream of the crop - but there are other ways to skin the cat if you have some fab skills and patience.

Using the 'test ports' on the opposite end of the fuel rail from OE fuel supply to supply VO is CLEAN and relatively easy. You will add check valves (CV's) to the end of the factory fuel lines at the heads - this will prevent VO from entering the OE fuel system and is the only mod to OE fuel system. The VO system will be totally redundant - providing you a way to get home if you have a problem with either fuel system! ;)

VO will leave a separate tank, ideally with a heated pick-up, and travel through heated fuel lines (TIH) to a pre-filter and a stock PSD pump ($40) located under cab. Then to a fuel pressure regulator (~$150).

The 'return' line from FPR will run through TIH back to just before VO tank. Tee the return into the suction line instead of dumping the fuel back into the tank. This will create a 'loop' for the fuel to travel that reduces strain on the pump and HEATS the fuel very well.

The 'pressure' side of FPR will then go to a filter head (~$15) where you'll use a spin-on fuel filter. I use a WIX 24006 filter (~$9). After filter, there will be a CV - this one prevents diesel from going to the VO tank when running on that expensive stuff.

Following this CV is a tee. One side of this tee goes up to the engine and the other side has a normally-closed 12v solenoid valve. This 'purge valve' allows diesel to flush the VO out of the heads and bypass the VO-side CV, etc - sending the VO (and a little diesel) back to the VO tank.

Tube-in-hose (TIH) fuel lines use coolant to heat the fuel by placing 3/8" aluminum tubing inside 3/4" heater hose. The tubing costs about $1/ft, heater hose about $1.25/ft and the 'ends' can be made for about $6/ea using 1/2" black iron tee's and nipples.

You switch fuels by turning the pumps on/off. It takes about 2 miles for me to get up to temp and switch to VO - then I burn straight VO as long as I wanna drive that day. The 'purge' at the end of the day takes about 20secs and puts a quart or so of diesel into the VO tank. I have gone as far as 10,000 miles on a single tank of diesel. :-X04

I can likely burn VO in colder temps than I could diesel (if I could get the engine started/warmed up). I have burned straight VO in -5*F with no problem. :-jammin

There's a few more bits and pieces I recommend, but this is the meat and potatoes of my F350's conversion. I have 170k miles on the high cholesterol diet in this truck now and have yet to have the first fuel-related problem. :-X22

sean23johnson 11-12-2012 11:50 AM

Awesome!!!! Thank you guys for the info.

My original thought was to save some money on the system but also to keep the system extremely simple. But I have always liked the idea of a separate system for the vo so if anything happened I could switch to d2 and get home.

Jason, that answers my email that I sent you earlier. I want to start collecting parts and building a custom heated tank (im a welder by trade).

What FPR do you reccomend??

Thanks
Sean

SkySkiJason 11-12-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean23johnson (Post 12475997)
Awesome!!!! Thank you guys for the info.

My original thought was to save some money on the system but also to keep the system extremely simple. But I have always liked the idea of a separate system for the vo so if anything happened I could switch to d2 and get home.

Jason, that answers my email that I sent you earlier. I want to start collecting parts and building a custom heated tank (im a welder by trade).

What FPR do you reccomend??

Thanks
Sean

Here's some part#'s/sources for ya to chew on:
Pump:
New Fuel Pump Installation Kit Ford Pickup Van 7 3L Diesel E2236 | eBay

FPR:
Magnafuel 2 Port EFI Regulator Boost Ref MP 9925 B | eBay

Fittings for FPR:
(1) of these - JEGS Performance Products 100581 JEGS AN Male to Hose Barb Adapters
(2) of these - JEGS Performance Products 100107 JEGS AN to NPT Adapter Fittings
(2) of these - 104-0606C | 3/8" Hose Barb x 3/8" NPTF Female Pipe (Brass) 104

Pre-pump filter: (O'Riellys can get this for ya)
Wix 33972 & Napa 3972 Fuel Filter: FleetFilter Secure Online Store

As far as the tank goes, I prefer a 'heated sump' design. The idea is to heat a small amount of oil where it will be sucked out of the tank. The problems with heating the whole tank include expedited polymerization rate, increased condensation and obviously its just terribly inefficient. The typical 'heated pick-ups' are heating a column of oil, then pulling the coldest oil in the column from the bottom of the tank. A heated sump with limited communication to the main tank can primarily heat a much smaller volume of fuel, while heating the oil in the tank above it enough to allow it to run into the sump in the coldest weather.

Feel free to shoot me an email or gimme a call/txt if ya wanna discuss what you come up with. :-X22

sean23johnson 11-12-2012 01:56 PM

Thank you Jason for all the links!!! Looking forward to putting a kit together.

I want to talk to you about that heated fuel line and check valves but I can email you about that stuff.

As for the fuel tank. When I say heated tank I mean putting like a hot fox in a tank I will build. I have no intension to heat 50 gallons of wvo.

kirkharrod 11-14-2012 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkySkiJason (Post 12476340)
As far as the tank goes, I prefer a 'heated sump' design. The idea is to heat a small amount of oil where it will be sucked out of the tank. The problems with heating the whole tank include expedited polymerization rate, increased condensation and obviously its just terribly inefficient. The typical 'heated pick-ups' are heating a column of oil, then pulling the coldest oil in the column from the bottom of the tank. A heated sump with limited communication to the main tank can primarily heat a much smaller volume of fuel, while heating the oil in the tank above it enough to allow it to run into the sump in the coldest weather.

Also, heating the whole tank makes it expand and contract and can crack the welds on the tank. I believe this is why my tank got a crack.

SkySkiJason 11-14-2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirkharrod (Post 12483307)
Also, heating the whole tank makes it expand and contract and can crack the welds on the tank. I believe this is why my tank got a crack.

It's more likely there was just a weak weld in that area - I don't heat my tanks, but suspect spending time in places like TX, OK and KS in the summer gets them as hot as if I did. Summer before last I saw a month's worth of over 100* days, with max air temps near 120*. The pavement regularly exceeded 160*... There are 100's of RDS-built VO tanks in Vegistroke conversions that heat the whole tank. I've never heard of a leak. :-huh

My 200gal tank had some failed welds though. Turns out that 1400lbs of oil SLAMMING into the top and sides of the tank on NJ's finest highways :-arrgh is really, really hard on structural integrity!! :-X15

Christof13T 11-14-2012 07:55 PM

My RDS Tank got a crack in bottom drivers side weld. 91 gal with toolbox.not heat related. Mine cracked from weight and vibration.

kirkharrod 11-14-2012 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkySkiJason (Post 12483598)
It's more likely there was just a weak weld in that area - I don't heat my tanks, but suspect spending time in places like TX, OK and KS in the summer gets them as hot as if I did. Summer before last I saw a month's worth of over 100* days, with max air temps near 120*. The pavement regularly exceeded 160*... There are 100's of RDS-built VO tanks in Vegistroke conversions that heat the whole tank. I've never heard of a leak. :-huh

My 200gal tank had some failed welds though. Turns out that 1400lbs of oil SLAMMING into the top and sides of the tank on NJ's finest highways :-arrgh is really, really hard on structural integrity!! :-X15

Could be but it took 4 years for that weak weld to fail.

Melody Guzman 12-05-2012 10:10 PM

Gathering parts for my own '95 powerstroke conversion and had at first hoped to plumb into the fuel line after the second stage of the pumping process(mechanical stock pump), but could not find find a suitable location with enough room(big turbo charge thingy makes space cramped). I noticed you suggested placing check valves at the two points where the fuel enters the rails. On mine that is all metal tubing coming from the banjo bolt assembly, so my plan now is to do a fuel bowl delete and replace the stock mech pump with a bosch, creating plenty of room for the solenoids, etc. Is this overkill? Is there anything I have missed? Searched the web and have found almost no useful information. Oh and when using solenoids are cv's neccesary?

SkySkiJason 12-06-2012 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Guzman (Post 12563819)
Gathering parts for my own '95 powerstroke conversion and had at first hoped to plumb into the fuel line after the second stage of the pumping process(mechanical stock pump), but could not find find a suitable location with enough room(big turbo charge thingy makes space cramped). I noticed you suggested placing check valves at the two points where the fuel enters the rails. On mine that is all metal tubing coming from the banjo bolt assembly, so my plan now is to do a fuel bowl delete and replace the stock mech pump with a bosch, creating plenty of room for the solenoids, etc. Is this overkill? Is there anything I have missed? Searched the web and have found almost no useful information. Oh and when using solenoids are cv's neccesary?

The '95 has a regulated-return fuel system. You could put a 3way selector valve between the mechanical pump and the diesel filter to select which tank you draw fuel from and a 2nd 3way valve after the FPR to select the tank you are returning to. I'm not intimately familiar with the details though...

The late-model 7.3's are 'dead headed'. You can convert to this system by deleting the mech. pump, filter and fuel lines and adding an electric pump, FPR and filter. Then, you'd use a check valve between the diesel filter and the heads. A second fuel pump, FPR and filter would be used for VO and you'd feed the opposite end of each head. There will be a CV between the filter and the heads, but you'll add a 12v solenoid valve that will allow you to bypass the VO CV for 'purging'.

The latter method is MUCH cleaner/simpler plumbing-wise, but costs more due to the pumps and FPR's.

Melody Guzman 12-06-2012 01:07 AM

There is only one and a half or two inches between the fuel bowl/filter and the mechanical pump. I was worried that if I intercepted the flow before it reaches the high pressure side of the mechanical pump; A. The pressure would be reduced below specifications and B.The diaphragm pump might become damaged by the hotter and thicker oil. From the high pressure side fuel flows through a tee(banjo bolt) and into the rails. Almost set on the fuel bowl/mechanical pump deletion(I have most of the parts, though I am working on converting a Blue Bird Bus as well and could use the Bosch pump on that if a miracle of enlightenment made the bowl/mech pump deletion unnecessary)Please check out my poorly labeled thread(no mention of wvo), I don't want to hijack or post inappropriately.

SkySkiJason 12-06-2012 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Guzman (Post 12564372)
There is only one and a half or two inches between the fuel bowl/filter and the mechanical pump. I was worried that if I intercepted the flow before it reaches the high pressure side of the mechanical pump; A. The pressure would be reduced below specifications and B.The diaphragm pump might become damaged by the hotter and thicker oil. From the high pressure side fuel flows through a tee(banjo bolt) and into the rails. Almost set on the fuel bowl/mechanical pump deletion(I have most of the parts, though I am working on converting a Blue Bird Bus as well and could use the Bosch pump on that if a miracle of enlightenment made the bowl/mech pump deletion unnecessary)Please check out my poorly labeled thread(no mention of wvo), I don't want to hijack or post inappropriately.

See my links above for $40 PSD replacement fuel pump w/lifetime warranty. :-X22

trekbasso 12-07-2012 09:08 AM

Hello Jason and Christof. Good to see a couple of familiar faces. Starting to lurk over here, sort of thinking of the veggie diet, or supplement.
I always thought the "just pull up behind Jack n the Box" and fill up was too good to be true.
Wow, this stuff gets complicated, but maybe worth it.


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