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-   -   5.4L at idol nocks and shakes (sometimes) (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1140257-5-4l-at-idol-nocks-and-shakes-sometimes.html)

Kennedy2 02-17-2012 12:47 PM

5.4L at idol nocks and shakes (sometimes)
 
I have a 2007 f150 I just put a used motor in with 90 000km motor runs great sounds great but the odd time at an idol the motor slows in rpm start to get a shake and nocks like a bitch ? Any ideas or has anyone ever had this happen to them ? It's got a cold air, throttle body spacer, flow master exaust.
Please help ASAP !!!!!!! Ps when I turn truck off then start it back up it's fine runs good ?

Longdistancetrucker 02-18-2012 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kennedy2 (Post 11447031)
I have a 2007 f150 I just put a used motor in with 90 000km motor runs great sounds great but the odd time at an idol the motor slows in rpm start to get a shake and nocks like a bitch ? Any ideas or has anyone ever had this happen to them ? It's got a cold air, throttle body spacer, flow master exaust.
Please help ASAP !!!!!!! Ps when I turn truck off then start it back up it's fine runs good ?



I have posted this in a few other places, thought you'd find this helpful:

Just Came across this in the February 2012 issue of Motor Magazine and thought that I should share this as this is a very common thread here on the FTE forum.

"Owners of some 1997-2005 Ford Trucks with the 5.4L two-valve engine may complain of an intermittent rough idle. One likely cause, says Ford, is noncommanded EGR flow. A stuck open EGR vlave is ultimately the culprit.

To make a definitive diagnosis, connect your scan tool, start the engine and allow it to reach normal operating temperature. Next, allow the idle to stabilize, scroll down to the DPFEGR PID on the scanner's display and write down the voltage. Now disconnect the vaccuum hose to the EGR valve and connect a vaccuum pump to its port. Pump the vacuum up until the EGR valve is wide open, then bleed off the vaccuum. Record the DPFEGR voltage again. Repeat this procedure several (about 8) more times.

If the DPFEGR voltage increases by .03 volt or more from the initial reading and the idle gets rough, the EGR valve is probably stuck open. Try tapping the casting with a wrench. If the voltage decreases and the idle now gets smooth, the valve is definitely sticking. Replace it with a revised design, Part No. XL3Z-9D475-CA.

Trucks that can benefit from the upgraded EGR vlave are 1997-99 F-250 light duty pickups, 1997-2004 f-150s, 1998-99 Lincoln Navigators, 1997-2005 E-series vans, 1998-2004 F-super duty pickups and 2000-05 Excursions."

-Tom Rosario (Feb. '12 Motor Magazine - "Service Slants")
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nogo73 02-22-2012 02:44 AM

I find the super duties funny because I don't have an egr valve in my 2001.
My 5.4l runs great w/ headers back exhaust larger throttle body and a k&n.

70f100longbed 02-22-2012 11:20 AM

A 2007 F150 5.4 doesn't have EGR. The VCT performs EGR function. OP, does the noise occur mostly when hot? It sounds to me like it has low oil pressure and the phasers are not returning to idle position. The oil pressure must be at least 25 PSI at hot idle for the phasers to operate properly. There was a problem with 2007 engines where the thrust bearing would wear out causing the crankshaft to walk and cause low oil pressure. When the noise is occuring does it go away when you rev the engine a little?

nflder 03-07-2012 06:32 AM

2007 F150 5.4L 3V Engine Knock (re-produceable)
 
Hi,

I have an '07 F150 5.4L 3V that has a horrible knock that I re-reproduce at will (and make go away).

1. Bring engine up to operating temp.
2. Light throttle tip-in bringing RPM's to (but no more than than) 1000rpm.
3. Release throttle (idles back down to ~500rpm).
4. KNOCK and VIOLENT VIBRATION occurs and rpm's drop to ~300rpm.:-X15
5. Apply throttle to bring rpm's ~ 1500rpm and release.
6. Knock and vibration gone. Engine purrs back at idle.:-X21

I can re-produce this 100% of the time. Now what I do when making parking lot maneuvers (<1200 rpm) is make sure I rev teh engine to at least 1500rpm and it won't invoke the horrible knock/vibration.

When this does occur the oil pressure gauge in the dash is rock steady. Although it could be not repsonding quikcly enough to show a short interval drop in oil pressure. Dealer measured pressure at operating temp to be 30-35 psi.

In addition to this, I also have a hesitation somewhere around 2nd gear. Not much, but noticable.

Cam phasor? VCT? Fuel sending unit module?

I would thought maybe EGR but it's my understadning these engines don't have one.

Ironhand03 03-07-2012 06:36 AM

Id replace the spark plugs.

rslade76 04-08-2012 08:22 PM

I have the same exact trouble as NFLDER. Mine is an 08, pisses me off , i only have 64000kms on my truck. I also have a friend with a 09 with the same problem. ps-Nflder, are you from Newfoundland? If so where?

nflder 04-09-2012 09:49 AM

rslade76:
Affirmative on Newfoundland.
Living in St.John's at the moment. Orginally from Carbonear.

PeterTheWolf 04-16-2012 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nflder (Post 11540814)
Hi,

I have an '07 F150 5.4L 3V that has a horrible knock that I re-reproduce at will (and make go away).......
Cam phasor? VCT? Fuel sending unit module?

I have a 2004 F150 (late model) with 150K on it. Just bought it. I am experiencing the exact same issue and I too can reproduce it. I believe that "70f100longbed" is correct on this... low oil pressure at idle. This is what I have done so far:

1.) Replaced the driver's VCT because I was getting code P0022. This did not correct the issue.
2.) Removed the oil pressure sending switch and put in a oil pressure gauge with a 6 foot line to it and routed it to the inside of the cab through the firewall.
3.) Monitored oil pressure at all temperatures.
4.) Results are as follows...
a.) 75psi when starting the engine on a cool morning ... idles as designed.
b.) 60-65 psi when on driving on the highway (RPM about 2100) with the engine up to operating temperature.
c.) 50 psi when driving on highway and the RPM drops down between 1000-1500.
d.) 25 psi and less when I get off the highway and come to a stop sign with the engine at operating temperature .... THIS IS WHEN I GET THE ROUGH IDLE.
5.) If I understand the design of this motor correctly, the timing is in the most advanced state when at idle and the VCT accomplishes this if working correctly; however, since the oil presuure MUST BE a steady (strong) 25 psi or more and I am seeing a very weak 25psi (or less) the VCT is not able to change the retarded cam position from the 2000+ RPM ... so I get the code P0022.
6.) Hence, Bad timing (too retarded) and rough idle at RPMs lower than 1000 ... which is IDLE.

Now, someone please correct me if I am wrong. If I am correct ... than I have a few question.

1.) What should the oil pressure be at 500-750 RPM on a 5.4L motor that is within spec
tolerances on oil pump, crank bearings, & connecting rod bearing?
2.) Are these oil pumps know to loose the ability to maintain designed oil pressure on high mileage motors?
3.) Would I expect to see the crank bearings and/or connecting rod bearings approaching "out of tolerance" spec with the symptoms above?
4.) Or would it be the combination of bearings and oil pump causing my low oil pressure at idle?
5.) Lastly, will I be able to replace the oil pump from the underneath after pulling the oil pan?

Thanks,


rslade76 04-25-2012 08:07 PM

Hey Nflder, did you get your truck fixed?
 
In response to Nflder's 2nd last post, I had my truck for a 1 hour drive and all the exact symptoms have occured exactly as he described. It happened almost everytime I would go forward or reverse , just going ahead or coming to a stop. Just wondering if anyone has the fix for this. I have no codes showing and would hate to spend alot of money when nobody can tell me what's wrong. I spoke to a local mechanic and said it's probably the cam sensor under the power sterring res because that's where the sound seemed to be coming from! ? ps- is cam sensor the vct sensor?

Steve_Uzi 05-16-2012 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nflder (Post 11540814)
Hi,

I have an '07 F150 5.4L 3V that has a horrible knock that I re-reproduce at will (and make go away).

1. Bring engine up to operating temp.
2. Light throttle tip-in bringing RPM's to (but no more than than) 1000rpm.
3. Release throttle (idles back down to ~500rpm).
4. KNOCK and VIOLENT VIBRATION occurs and rpm's drop to ~300rpm.:-X15
5. Apply throttle to bring rpm's ~ 1500rpm and release.
6. Knock and vibration gone. Engine purrs back at idle.:-X21

I can re-produce this 100% of the time. Now what I do when making parking lot maneuvers (<1200 rpm) is make sure I rev teh engine to at least 1500rpm and it won't invoke the horrible knock/vibration.

When this does occur the oil pressure gauge in the dash is rock steady. Although it could be not repsonding quikcly enough to show a short interval drop in oil pressure. Dealer measured pressure at operating temp to be 30-35 psi.

In addition to this, I also have a hesitation somewhere around 2nd gear. Not much, but noticable.

Cam phasor? VCT? Fuel sending unit module?

I would thought maybe EGR but it's my understadning these engines don't have one.

Same Problem here..... NO Codes...

What recently happened to my truck... P0430 Code - Bank 2 Cat - sure enough Cat was clogged and the mechanic did the following:

1. Replaced CAT
2. Replaced FPM (the housing was cracked and only days away from failing)
3. Reflashed the PCM with the "Latest" version from Ford.

So after that the power was back and the truck ran pretty good.. but then the Low-ilde BS started as you stated....

I finally got a chance to clean the Throttlebody the other day... While the problem has gotten better, meaning it has not happened as frequently... it is Still happening... my Truck has 84,000 on it with the Original Plugs... The Fuel filter is changed every 10,000 miles.

Before I start going crazy as to how to fix this... my next step is to do the spark plugs.. of course when I get the chance to do so...

70f100longbed 05-16-2012 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf (Post 11718331)
I have a 2004 F150 (late model) with 150K on it. Just bought it. I am experiencing the exact same issue and I too can reproduce it. I believe that "70f100longbed" is correct on this... low oil pressure at idle. This is what I have done so far:

1.) Replaced the driver's VCT because I was getting code P0022. This did not correct the issue.
2.) Removed the oil pressure sending switch and put in a oil pressure gauge with a 6 foot line to it and routed it to the inside of the cab through the firewall.
3.) Monitored oil pressure at all temperatures.
4.) Results are as follows...
a.) 75psi when starting the engine on a cool morning ... idles as designed.
b.) 60-65 psi when on driving on the highway (RPM about 2100) with the engine up to operating temperature.
c.) 50 psi when driving on highway and the RPM drops down between 1000-1500.
d.) 25 psi and less when I get off the highway and come to a stop sign with the engine at operating temperature .... THIS IS WHEN I GET THE ROUGH IDLE.
5.) If I understand the design of this motor correctly, the timing is in the most advanced state when at idle and the VCT accomplishes this if working correctly; however, since the oil presuure MUST BE a steady (strong) 25 psi or more and I am seeing a very weak 25psi (or less) the VCT is not able to change the retarded cam position from the 2000+ RPM ... so I get the code P0022.
6.) Hence, Bad timing (too retarded) and rough idle at RPMs lower than 1000 ... which is IDLE.

Now, someone please correct me if I am wrong. If I am correct ... than I have a few question.

1.) What should the oil pressure be at 500-750 RPM on a 5.4L motor that is within spec
tolerances on oil pump, crank bearings, & connecting rod bearing?
2.) Are these oil pumps know to loose the ability to maintain designed oil pressure on high mileage motors?
3.) Would I expect to see the crank bearings and/or connecting rod bearings approaching "out of tolerance" spec with the symptoms above?
4.) Or would it be the combination of bearings and oil pump causing my low oil pressure at idle?
5.) Lastly, will I be able to replace the oil pump from the underneath after pulling the oil pan?

Thanks,


The oil pressure at hot idle must be a minimum of 25psi for the VCT to work properly but I would say anything below 30 is suspect. The oil pan and timing cover has to come off as well as both timing chains to replace the oil pump. Its possible the timing chain tensioner seals have blown out and are bleeding off pressure. You could try changing the oil using 5w30 and motorcraft filter. I would pull the oil pan and closely inspect the thrust bearings for wear. Also look for metal particles in the pan, a little is ok but if it looks like someone sprinkled glitter all over then there is a problem.

Steve_Uzi 05-16-2012 08:14 PM

Rough idle - finally threw a P0345 Code
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_Uzi (Post 11840358)
Same Problem here..... NO Codes...

What recently happened to my truck... P0430 Code - Bank 2 Cat - sure enough Cat was clogged and the mechanic did the following:

1. Replaced CAT
2. Replaced FPM (the housing was cracked and only days away from failing)
3. Reflashed the PCM with the "Latest" version from Ford.

So after that the power was back and the truck ran pretty good.. but then the Low-ilde BS started as you stated....

I finally got a chance to clean the Throttlebody the other day... While the problem has gotten better, meaning it has not happened as frequently... it is Still happening... my Truck has 84,000 on it with the Original Plugs... The Fuel filter is changed every 10,000 miles.

Before I start going crazy as to how to fix this... my next step is to do the spark plugs.. of course when I get the chance to do so...

So how funny is that.... I went to Home cheapo to get a few things.. That was a 10 mile trip which took about 15 minutes... So when I got home and pulled into the parking lot, the truck started to rough idle and guess what??? It finally threw a code!! P0345 and P0349 was pending.

So it looks like something is up with my Cam positioners!?!

So is there a possiblilty of low oil pressure? Or is it more likely that I jumped a tooth and the engine needs to be retimed?

Crissyfl 05-23-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_Uzi (Post 11841503)
So how funny is that.... I went to Home cheapo to get a few things.. That was a 10 mile trip which took about 15 minutes... So when I got home and pulled into the parking lot, the truck started to rough idle and guess what??? It finally threw a code!! P0345 and P0349 was pending.

So it looks like something is up with my Cam positioners!?!

So is there a possiblilty of low oil pressure? Or is it more likely that I jumped a tooth and the engine needs to be retimed?

We have a 2004 late model f150 and just went through the same issue, shake at low idle, knocking and same p codes, ours also had the 22 code which i Think is low oil preasure and it seemed like the transmission was about to go. Mind you this didn't happen all at once, the condition had been deteriorating over time. We change the oil and filter ever 6k miles. Before we took it to the shop, i read horror stories of thes symptoms and folks replacing cam sensors, VCR, timing chains...etc, and thousands of dollars later symptoms remained. Since I know the p codes pointed to cam sensors, and I know many times that didn't resolve, I wanted to have them go right for the timing chain looking for a skipped tooth. My husband went against my recommendation and took it to his ford Truck expert mechanic. A week later and 1800 dollars the mechanic called and said their is sludge all over the engine, the truck barely runs, not to waste any more money to get a new engine...

So my husband told me this news, i did not believe this diagnosis. So i did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that we needed to chane the oil to 15-40 diesel. I told my husband to call his expert mechanic and tell him to humor you and put in that oil.

My husband was laughing, thinking how rediculous this idea was. But since the alternative was to get it towed for a second opinion or buy a new engine and tranny, he went with it.

Well the next day the mechanic calls and says he can't believe it but the 15-40 oil resolved all the issues. Knocking, stalling at idle, rough idle, transmission symptoms, running like a diesel oh and the ticking... GONE.

I found at least 10 other people who have resolved these issues with the 15-40.

I wish someone had posted this resolution with more clarity so that we could have done this first and saved 1800$ and a lot of stress.

Good luck

Steve_Uzi 05-23-2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crissyfl (Post 11868324)
We have a 2004 late model f150 and just went through the same issue, shake at low idle, knocking and same p codes, ours also had the 22 code which i Think is low oil preasure and it seemed like the transmission was about to go. Mind you this didn't happen all at once, the condition had been deteriorating over time. We change the oil and filter ever 6k miles. Before we took it to the shop, i read horror stories of thes symptoms and folks replacing cam sensors, VCR, timing chains...etc, and thousands of dollars later symptoms remained. Since I know the p codes pointed to cam sensors, and I know many times that didn't resolve, I wanted to have them go right for the timing chain looking for a skipped tooth. My husband went against my recommendation and took it to his ford Truck expert mechanic. A week later and 1800 dollars the mechanic called and said their is sludge all over the engine, the truck barely runs, not to waste any more money to get a new engine...

So my husband told me this news, i did not believe this diagnosis. So i did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that we needed to chane the oil to 15-40 diesel. I told my husband to call his expert mechanic and tell him to humor you and put in that oil.

My husband was laughing, thinking how rediculous this idea was. But since the alternative was to get it towed for a second opinion or buy a new engine and tranny, he went with it.

Well the next day the mechanic calls and says he can't believe it but the 15-40 oil resolved all the issues. Knocking, stalling at idle, rough idle, transmission symptoms, running like a diesel oh and the ticking... GONE.

I found at least 10 other people who have resolved these issues with the 15-40.

I wish someone had posted this resolution with more clarity so that we could have done this first and saved 1800$ and a lot of stress.

Good luck

At this time I am willing to take the $50 gamble and do a filter swap and try some 15W40 oil. If this indeed fixes the issue then great... At this point the low/rough idle happens everytime I drive the truck once it reaches operating temperature.

However, after the hours and hours I spent searching and reading posts in the 04-08 F-150 and the 4.6/5.4L Modular engine sections of this forum for the P0345/P0349 codes.. I honestly believe I have a Cam Phazer that went south... weak spring... but heck I am willing to take a $50 gamble and TRY the oil....


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