Is it time to replace my water pump? (pics)
 

Hi all,

1986 F150 300 - If I grab opposite cooling fan blades and tug on them, I can rock the central fan pulley (pic below) side-to-side a few millimeters in either direction. It always immediately returns to center when I stop tugging. I have read this is an indication that the water pump is going bad. Is a little play normal, or is it supposed to be rock-solid?

I have no engine temperature problems, and the top radiator hose is very firm when the engine is running, so it seems I have decent water pressure.

However, the pump may be a bit noisy, although it is hard for me to tell what is normal versus abnormal noise. Also, sometimes upon restarting the truck (engine hot) there is a loud SQUEAL!!! noise from the engine that lasts about 3 seconds. Only when restarting a hot engine, though. I suspect that noise is somehow pulley or pump related.



https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/p...ictureid=73678
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/p...ictureid=73677

Its been my experience that a water pump leaks when it has gone out. I've never had one wiggle like that. Sounds like the bearings are going bad or something. Looks like it's not a huge project, probly better to trow a new one on before it leaves you stranded.

Are you sure the play is in the pump and not the fan itself? With the belts tight, you would not be able to move the pump. Loosen the belts then check for play at the pump, moving the pully not the fan.

If the pulley is rocking, it's time for a pump. If the play is in the fan clutch, it's time to replace that.

Any signs of coolant on the underside of the pump, around the "weep hole"?

I went looking for the "weep hole" but could not find it! I assume its on the underside of the pump, which seems to be blocked from vision by the crankshaft pulley. I can find no evidence of coolant leakage, the level in the reservoir stays constant.

The fan clutch seems to be attached properly and functioning as it should. I can turn it more freely when the engine is cold, when hot it has more viscous drag when turned. But it turns smoothly in any event, and "roars" when first starting the truck but slows down later. I only recently learned about the fan clutch reading here. I think its a pretty neat device. I did read it is good practice to replace the fan clutch when replacing the water pump.

Can anyone suggest a good quality brand of water pump (I'm assuming Motorcraft is unavailable). Fan clutch?

Also, are there any other components (seals, pulleys, etc.) that are good to check and/or replace in conjunction with a water pump removal/installation job? I like to try to maximize the repairs when they are more efficiently done together.

I have replaced a thermostat myself but never a water pump. Two things I learned from that relatively simple job: 1) No mechanic would do as good of a job as I can myself (they would likely not meticulously remove all gasket material like I did, or wrap bolts in teflon, etc.); and 2) the difference in quality between the Motorcraft mounting gasket and the No-Name brand one from China was truly laughable.

It looks pretty tight in there, my truck has a full radiator shroud that will probably need to come off.

Thanks!

I'll bet you can still get one from FoMoCo, I was able to last summer for $75.00 or so. My old one had the play you talk about for a couple years before it gave up and started leaking; I doubt it's about to fail, but I'd replace it before a long trip. I'd also replace the clutch if you haven't done so in the past 100K. okie is right on about the play possibly being from the clutch; watch the pulleys and the clutch one at a time, while you're rocking it, to be sure.
You'll need to source a big wrench to remove the fan clutch; I've used a 15" adjustable wrench several times on mine by taking most of the fan bolts out and holding the pulley with a prybar while turning the big nut that hold the clutch on clockwise (lefthand thread, just like the shroud says) until it breaks loose. You could also just buy the right tool at the parts store.
Any chance you could post up the engineering number of the shroud when you get it off? ;)

Good luck.

It's

Thanks. I think I saw that shroud number when I was under the truck looking for the weep hole. I'll look again and try to get it.

The pulley itself rocks, no way that can be attributed to the clutch bearings.

I agree that the pump may have a while to go before it dies, since I have no leakage and strong water pressure. Thanks for the insight into how long it might still last. My engine has 95,000 original miles on it, 94,000 put on by the PO. For all I know it is the original pump.

A general question for you all: if RockAuto lists a part as being specific for your make and model of truck, is it safe to assume they are correct? My reason for asking is they currently list as available a Motorcraft pump and fan clutch that their website says is correct for my year, make, and model. I would buy them now but seek general assurance or advice on how much one should trust a website (like RockAuto's) when they say their part is the correct one for your truck.

I'll bet it'll work perfect. The only real issue with the box store pump is that some of the trucks (maybe cars, I've seen the 240 in a car) use a smaller hose that attaches to the pump, so most of the aftermarket/rebuilds have a rubber "shim" to make the heater hose outlet the right size. It'll work fine today, but next time you change or remove the hose-where do you get the shim?
If you can get the Motorcraft pump at RockAuto, I'd order it. Like every online store, you can find negative stories, but they seem to be doing something right. And they have a Motorcraft pump- it's a win.

Pretty brash statement coming from someone who is asking for help with a water pump. If a tech doesn't know what he's doing or has constant call-backs, they don't stay employed long. Most techs want to do a job only ONCE, so they do it right the first time. Good luck with your repair.

I think you may be missing the point a bit. I do not believe Galendor's comments were meant in any way to be a slight against mechanics. But in reality a shop mechanic cannot and will not be as meticulous and most of us on this site are with repairs. Will they perform the job satisfactorily? Yes, but they have a rate to meet and a job to do and are graded on how many proper repairs they perform in a given time period. A shop mechanic is not going to carefully clean and in some cases repaint every part that is pulled for a job (nor would you want them to, $$$$$).

Galendor,
In your case I would replace both the pump and clutch. Your truck is a very nice survivor and extremely clean under the hood. A failure of the water pump might make a mess to clean and I believe coolant and paint do not mix well. Also, the repair is less complex than some the feedback carb work you have done so far. My $0.02 worth.

If it was an admission of self-pride for a well done repair, then I apologize. Good job. I took it as a slide on general shoddy work by mechanics, and being a refrigeration mechanic, I personally get tired of hearing those digs... Seems like there is always someone out there that can do a better job than a grease monkey.......again, if I took it the wrong way, then I apologize.

You are right, my statement was an unfair and incorrect generalization. I didn't intend it that way. Professional mechanics of any kind know their trade far better than I. But they are typically under pressure to work quickly, and that unfortunately can reduce quality of work - true for any endeavor. To be clear, I respect professional mechanics and am just a amatuer asking for help with a water pump!

Hi Wayowanderer,

The shroud has imprinted on it: Ford Pt. No. E6TA-8146-DA

Here is a picture of it:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/p...ictureid=73778

If ya want my honest opinion, in this situation (what I did with my '84), I would put a pump, thermostat (since you are putting in a new pump), and a flex fan on, and get rid of the fan/clutch all together. I never have liked the clutch set-up, and when I put the new motor in my '91, it's going by-by as well. You are correct, the job isn't very hard. It can be time consuming, but then again take your time, so there are no leaks. Like I said, this is only my opinion, and should be treated as one.:-X22

I've had simular luck with mechanics when working on my truck. there are some unscrupulous mechanics out there that only care in how often you come back.

Trick is to find these bad mechanics and weed them out. There are just as many good mechanics as there are bad ones...

The Threaded fan clutch takes a special removal tool to remove it properly.

Ford Tool#: T84T-6312-C

Autozone rents or lets people borrow tools, and may have one of these for your truck.

I don't take my vehicles to other mechanics BECAUSE of the shoddy work I've witnessed being performed over the years. I can only recommend three mechanics in my city of 60K because of it. And I still do my own work, because I do a better job, period. I take my vehicles in only until I can learn to do the work myself. People dig at mechanics for a reason.
I'd wager that most of us here would go away shaking our heads (and some of us have) if we could spend a day in some of the shops in our cities.
But it's unfair to pick on just auto OR refrigeration mechanics, because every trade has its turds. The trick is to find one who isn't and cultivate a friendship with them.
I have no doubt, though, that you're the kind of refrigeration mechanic I'd want to have do my work.

I disagree. FoMoCo put the clutch fan on for a reason; they wouldn't have spent a nickel more to build the truck than they had to.
A clutch fan will help you get a bit better mileage and will be less noisy at speed, and to convert over to the flex fan you'll have to install a water pump from an older model pickup, since the one for your truck has a threaded on boss for the fan clutch.
But with all respect to sparky, I can certainly understand why he'd suggest the swap. I just wouldn't do it personally, because I don't agree that it will be better. That's MY opinion, with heavy emphasis on opinion.

I agree...

A Flex fan is a downgrade to the cooling system.

A flex fan by design flexes the blades flat at high RPMs, reducing drag, but pulling in less air the faster it turns. This is detrimental at slow speeds climbing hills at higher RPMs.

A Clutch fan cools the same at slower RPMs as it does at higher RPMs, and does not flex flat the faster it goes. Not only does this save fuel, it cools better than a flex fan. A thermostatic Fan Clutch cools even more because as the temperature rises, the clutch engages more untill the fan is full on. Pulling the most air at RPMs. Something a flex fan cannot do.

This is why a clutch fan is a cooling upgrade and is an optional extra on these older trucks and cost you more money, and why the flex fan is standard.

Agreed, thanks for the good advice sparky but I will be keeping my truck stock. If it was good enough for Ford, it's good enough for me. I'm not a modifier, I just want reliability out of my truck.

I really wish I knew a mechanic who was also a friend, it would be very valuable. My experiences with shop mechanics have not been good. For example, what do you think would happen if I dropped my truck off at the local Firestone and said "replace my water pump"? I shudder to think of it - the cheapest water pump and gasket would be installed, RTV goop oozing out everywhere, and do you think my belts would be properly tensioned afterwards? Proper torque on all fasteners, I think not. Do you think my radiator shroud retaining screws would all be put back in? Nope. Would my radiator fins be dented in? Yep. Maybe I'm just paranoid but that is my experience. And forget the local Ford dealership - they told me my truck was "too old" for them to work on.

I would pay someone like Wyowanderer TWICE what a shop mechanic would charge to work on my truck, plus buy him lunch and beer afterwards. Why? Because it would be done correctly and I could see how it is done.

Also, flex fans make an awful buzzing noise when they spin. I hate them. I'd stick with OEM and replace the fan clutch.

Glad you still have the shroud. I got lucky and found one for mine that cured its hot running problems!

Fair enough. I got tired of haveing the dang thing go out. Very little towing with my p/u, and lots of Nebraska highway miles...... The noise doesn't bother me, I grew up in the cab of an eighteen wheeler..... I have had zero problems with cooling since I did the swap, it worked for me, and was just a suggestion!

No argument that there is bad mechanics out there, I guess hearing it all of the time, and being compared to them gets under my skin sometimes. I am lucky enough to have a very good friend who is a Ford mechanic, and a Brother who (was dropped on his head as a baby) is the lead mechanic at a Chevy dealership. So, yes there are good and bad ones out there. I apologize if I offended anyone. THANKS FOR THE ATTA BOY!

Another vote for fan clutch over flex fan, and I'd prefer yet to have an electric fan over a clutch fan. (Zero drag on the motor when cooling is not required, and a much cleaner engine bay)

If you were out in my area, I'd tell you to bring your truck by my place so we could power through the WP install.

I'm not a 300-6 expert, so I can't vouch for their timing chain, but it may be a good time to replace that as well. Any thoughts from the guys who know more?

The 300 doesn't have a timing chain, it has gears that mesh.

This engine doesn't have a timing chain, there's a gear driving the cam:

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Mj4vN2ZBlqg/S...0/IMG_0099.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_x3z6QEYzWqk/Se...iminggears.jpg


It's still a good suggestion, though. ;)

Not really. Most of these engines had the phenolic gear on the cam. Getting them off is a total PITA. IMHO, I would only change it out if I was going to rebuild it, or was having problems with it.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/...illt28/030.jpg

I'm curious as to why it kept going out on you. That seems excessive.

That is nasty...

Some 300-6s had a plastic gear to make the engine quieter. So if you had one of the plastic gears, it might be prudent to change them to all metal.
But I have to agree, very seldom do those gears cause problems.

I was thinking Ford may have done the dreaded "plastic gear" on the 300-6s as they did my 83 460, which is why I suggested it.

I was unaware, however, that it was a gear drive setup.

That's COOL! :D

I dunno when the plastic/fiber gears first started seeing use. They typically last around 200K or about 30 years, whichever comes first.
Replacing them is a pain, as mentioned. Best way to go, is with all metal replacements. Sure, they can make a little noise, but they seldom ever cause any other problems...

Water pump itself is a rather simple job on a 300. 4 bolts hold the pump on, IIRC. Sometimes, there's an alt bracket attached with 1 of those bolts, but not always. Typically, 2 hoses, lower radiator hose and heater return hose, along with the fan. That's about all there is to it.

I also agree that many shops may do a good job, but few will ever do a job that meets my expectations. Paint the pump? almost never at a shop, always when I do it myself. I don't like to see a rusty looking pump on the front of an engine. If the pump has paint on it after a shop replaces it, you can bet it was done by the supplier, not the guy that installed it. It also most likely won't be the same color as the rest of the engine......

I have the skill and knowledge to be a full time mechanic. I just don't like working on other people's crap. Most won't do anything until they don't have any choice, and then they want it done quick and cheap. They want to skimp when it comes to replacing stuff that should be replaced, and when that item later fails, they want to blame you for the failure when it was their own tight-wad nature that caused it. The "I told you so" line doesn't sit too well with them, no matter how right you are.

That's just it, G. If you lived close, your money wouldn't be worth anything. ;)
I wouldn't take payment, well, maybe a beer after we finished.
But this is an fairly easy job, and one you can do with a small investment of tools.
Seek out a good mechanic, and buy him a beer; as some questions. Mechanics are people, after all; they're friendly,amiable folks just like those on this board and they often make good friends.
And if you're ever in Casper, look me up. I'll buy the first beer.

I was referring to the suggestion to replace a timing chain, I thought that was a good idea given the age of the vehicle.

Of course, it doesn't have one so the suggestion is moot, but I nevertheless agreed with the idea of replacing the chain.

It's a deal. I agree 100% - mechanics are good people, most of their hurried approach is due to the endless stream of unrealistic and even mean customers, as Rouge mentioned.

My grandfather owned his own Shell station full auto repair shop in upstate small-town NY, where I'm from. My uncle owns and runs it now, together with his sons (my cousins). They also build and race sprint cars. So I have family who are mechanics - but they are too far away. If I was still living up there I would have the best place to take any of my vehicles, anytime.

Just to close this thread out - I replaced my water pump and fan clutch. You guys were right of course, it is a do-able job for an amatuer. Just take your time and take care to do it all correctly. Lots of little steps required to reach the pump (remove hoses, radiator shroud, belts, fan clutch, fan, and pump pulley). The special fan clutch removal wrenches were a big help, it was hard to remove the fan clutch even with those wrenches, so I can't imagine doing it without them. I put a little copper anti-seize on the new fan clutch threads in case I ever have to remove it again.

The old pump was really worn out, the shaft could be moved side-to side and I coud feel that the bearings were pretty much shot. The new pump was an OEM Motorcraft. Motorcraft fan clutches don't seem available anymore, but the one I installed is USA manufacture and seemed to be high quality (Four Seasons Brand).

Thanks for all your help!

Good Job, Galendor.

You know, I read this thread, and walked away from it after Gal's last post, but it's been eating me alive to not post my experience...

I have never, EVER taken any vehicle I've owned to a mechanic that I was completely happy with the results. It's not that I'm hard to please, but it just seems that the shop mechanics I've had to trust my car/truck to just don't give a damn. Broken, stripped, and hidden is par for the course with these guys.

Buying my Bronco scared me to death because it's got all that electronic crap, which meant I was gonna have to trust a mechanic again. Turns out that I was wrong about that. These forums, and guys like you guys, have helped me along with being able to work on even EFI stuff.

Mechanics don't touch my stuff. I'm not sure what the heck I'm ever gonna do if my trans goes out, but for right now, it's all on me.