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-   -   Intake Valve deposit problems with DI engines(?) (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1061248-intake-valve-deposit-problems-with-di-engines.html)

YoGeorge 04-23-2011 01:18 PM

Intake Valve deposit problems with DI engines(?)
 
Hi guys:
I have been thinking that direct injection on the EcoBoost and other engines from all manufacturers was the best thing since sliced bread (aside from the issues of higher fuel pump pressure, etc.).

However, I have been poking around the Internet and there is apparently a generic problem with direct injection engines where the intake valves get gummed up with PCV (crankcase fumes) and EGR gunk. Traditional port-injection engines have gas and it's additives moving over the intake valves and keeping them clean (or mostly clean), but with DI engines, this doesn't happen.

It looks like Audi and VW have been having the most serious problems. If you google "direct injection engine intake valve deposits" you will definitely find a whole bunch of links on the problem. And some really ugly photos of intake valves...

Toyota, I think, has a partial solution in that they do use a separate injector in the intake port (as well as the one in the combustion chamber) that does some of the work and intake valve cleaning.

Just pondering whether this is going to be any kind of issue with the EB motors. I'm guessing that as an engine ages and has more blowby, the PCV valve deposits will get somewhat more problematic.

Just thinking (or worrying) in advance,
George

johndeerefarmer 04-23-2011 05:20 PM

Ford engineer told me in one of the chat sessions to use a good quality gas (top tier) and to work the engine hard periodically. It's like the diesels, if you baby them you will have problems with clogged EGR's etc, work it hard and I haven't had any problems with my 6.0 in over 6 years

YoGeorge 04-23-2011 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndeerefarmer (Post 10256556)
Ford engineer told me in one of the chat sessions to use a good quality gas (top tier) and to work the engine hard periodically. It's like the diesels, if you baby them you will have problems with clogged EGR's etc, work it hard and I haven't had any problems with my 6.0 in over 6 years

I dunno. The intake valves never see the gas, so I don't think fuel quality makes much difference, and I'm not sure that diesel experience translates exactly to gas engine intake valve issues.

Here's a gruesome photo of a VW/Audi engine as well as a discussion of their deposit problems:

VWVortex.com - Direct injection causes intake valve buildup?

As I said, I was totally thrilled about the coming of DI until I started reading about this kind of stuff. I sure hope Ford has it worked out better than VW/Audi. It does sound like one of the main issues is having an effective oil separator in the PCV valve plumbing.

Thanks,
George

Joe Finn 04-24-2011 06:50 AM

Forget where I read it, but I saw something that said the EB doesn't have an EGR or PCV, supposedly they did this to avoid the deposit issue.

85e150six4mtod 04-24-2011 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Finn (Post 10258213)
Forget where I read it, but I saw something that said the EB doesn't have an EGR or PCV, supposedly they did this to avoid the deposit issue.

I did a search on that and can't find anything but mentions in other forums about a catch-can for the PCV. There is a lot about the "next generation" EB having cooled EGR. So I'd guess both are there.

EGR is also introduced using cam overlap, so that may or may not be in use with these engines.

The VW/Audi valves look pretty bad. The SHO valves look a little better, but still far from perfect.

Search led to this:

Want to buy Ecoboost, but... : Ford Flex Forum

Note some talk about EGR filters....

Which led to this:

BGFuelTest.com 44,043 miles

And the future:

Ford Working On More Powerful, More Efficient EcoBoost Technology

Not the bugs I expected to see that need to be worked out....but I'd guess they will figure it out, after a couple million "early adaptors" get hosed....or a couple million vehicles get recalled.

YoGeorge 04-25-2011 06:57 AM

Thanks, 85, for your research. This is making me less and less anxious to get into ANY kind of direct injected vehicle any time soon. I can only hope that this does not end up being a major nightmare for Ford or any other manufacturer as companies move toward adopting DI. I've been driving for 42 years and have had that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach many times, with many cars. I would sure hate to have it buying a new Ford EcoBoost of any kind. (I also don't really trust CVT's, for instance.)

Thanks,
George

LCPullman 04-25-2011 11:58 PM

Interesting info. I wonder though - seems that GM has been running the DI engines somewhat longer than Ford. Heard and problems with them?

Sounds like maybe they'll need regular flushing with a deposit cleaner.

85e150six4mtod 04-26-2011 01:19 PM

Another search finds GDI around since 1925, with the latest push starting in 1996 as by then the electronics worked better. Wiki, so beware, who has time to check?

Gasoline direct injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More of the same, with a reference to GM using the valve overlap for EGR instead of a regular EGR.

Direct Injection huge drawback - AnandTech Forums

My WAG theory is the EGR cooks the PCV fumes in the intake and on the back of the valves. Note in previous links the Ford stuff looked better than the others.

Stay tuned I guess.:-huh

YoGeorge 04-26-2011 05:35 PM

Thanks for the additional info, 85....your second link also brought to light the big fuel pump problems that DI BMW's have when fuel with alcohol in it is used. And they keep talking about going to 15% ethanol in the US. There are all kinds of factors like this that make the only valid testing of vehicles being long time periods in the hands of consumers.

This all makes me not want to be an early adopter of new technology like DI, CVT, and stuff like that.

For the record, I did have an '86 Turbo Lancer back in 1988-93 or so and it was a pretty cool car except that the head gaskets blew up at 69k miles and I took *very* good advantage of the 7/70 warranty to get a new turbo and pretty much a whole engine rebuild because of the oil/antifreeze mix. I prefer NA cars still...and have also had stuff like 426 Chrysler Hemi cars, Corvettes, etc. So I do like my big V8's but probably will not buy any more V8 vehicles after my '02 E150 (with 4.6) goes away--but that will be a while.

George

egbertnr 05-07-2011 07:56 PM

I just sold my 2007 Mazdaspeed 6, has the DI 2.3 turbo engine init and had some EGR issues, I usedit as my DD mainly back roads to and from work. Right around 45k miles I started have the check engine light pop up. Read the code and it was insufficient EGR flow. Did some research and found that this was common on these cars, and the fix was seafoam. Been using that stuff for the past few years in almost anything with an engine. It great and once you get some miles on the engine I would do a treatment on the intake before every other oil change depending on your internals. I did that and then went and ran the car pretty aggressively and took care of the issue until the next time, at which point I did it again. Take it for what its worth but thats what the mazda crowd is doing.

YoGeorge 05-08-2011 08:17 AM

I'm the OP for this thread. I was talking to my son (U of M engineering grad) and one of his friends has been working for Toyota R&D for a number of years--doing serious stuff like getting the crankshaft balance to work for the V10 in the new Lexus supercar. And the friend also has a full cage VW rally car, etc.

In any case, the friend's statement is that DI is the "worst idea" in engine development for years, meaning he foresees big problems down the road. Based on someone on the "insde" like this, I'm going to continue being skeptical until there are a lot of DI engines out there with over 100k miles on them of the kind I'd consider buying. My gut feeling is that no mfr has really solved the long term issues as yet. I hope I'm wrong.

George

johndeerefarmer 05-08-2011 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoGeorge (Post 10314932)
I'm the OP for this thread. I was talking to my son (U of M engineering grad) and one of his friends has been working for Toyota R&D for a number of years--doing serious stuff like getting the crankshaft balance to work for the V10 in the new Lexus supercar. And the friend also has a full cage VW rally car, etc.

In any case, the friend's statement is that DI is the "worst idea" in engine development for years, meaning he foresees big problems down the road. Based on someone on the "insde" like this, I'm going to continue being skeptical until there are a lot of DI engines out there with over 100k miles on them of the kind I'd consider buying. My gut feeling is that no mfr has really solved the long term issues as yet. I hope I'm wrong.

George

I don't put much store in a friend of friend says stuff. If DI is the "worse idea" then I don't think Ford would be planning on putting ecoboost engines in most of their fleet. They obviously were involved with the Mazda DI engine and based the ecoboost off of it. They knew what problems the Mazda and others were having. The "hero" ecoboost engine still made rated power after all it went through even with some deposits on it. The trick is to actually WORK your truck, don't just use it as a daily driver and use a top tier gas not that cheap junk

When the EPA dictated higher fuel economy and consumers dictated more power, DI and turbochargers are what is available as the answer. Diesels have EGR and other problems from the soot. GTDI engines have deposit issues. Until someone comes up with a better way to generate hp at high efficiency this is what we get.

egbertnr 05-08-2011 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndeerefarmer (Post 10315654)
I don't put much store in a friend of friend says stuff. If DI is the "worse idea" then I don't think Ford would be planning on putting ecoboost engines in most of their fleet. They obviously were involved with the Mazda DI engine and based the ecoboost off of it. They knew what problems the Mazda and others were having. The "hero" ecoboost engine still made rated power after all it went through even with some deposits on it. The trick is to actually WORK your truck, don't just use it as a daily driver and use a top tier gas not that cheap junk

When the EPA dictated higher fuel economy and consumers dictated more power, DI and turbochargers are what is available as the answer. Diesels have EGR and other problems from the soot. GTDI engines have deposit issues. Until someone comes up with a better way to generate hp at high efficiency this is what we get.

Well put, plus thats what warranties are for right?

YoGeorge 05-08-2011 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndeerefarmer (Post 10315654)
I don't put much store in a friend of friend says stuff. If DI is the "worse idea" then I don't think Ford would be planning on putting ecoboost engines in most of their fleet. They obviously were involved with the Mazda DI engine and based the ecoboost off of it. They knew what problems the Mazda and others were having. The "hero" ecoboost engine still made rated power after all it went through even with some deposits on it. The trick is to actually WORK your truck, don't just use it as a daily driver and use a top tier gas not that cheap junk

When the EPA dictated higher fuel economy and consumers dictated more power, DI and turbochargers are what is available as the answer. Diesels have EGR and other problems from the soot. GTDI engines have deposit issues. Until someone comes up with a better way to generate hp at high efficiency this is what we get.

Having seen the torn down torture test EB engine at the Detroit Auto Show, I agree that running the thing hard likely prevented much deposit formation. That said, your statement that top tier gas will make a difference is not valid; the gas never sees the back side of the intake valve. And your statement "don't just use it as a daily driver" makes me wonder what will happen with the vast majority of people that will buy an EB vehicle for use as a daily driver.

I hope I am wrong in any skepticism that I have about DI, but I have made a conscious decision not to be an "early adopter" of this technology...again, we shall see what happens when a whole bunch of different DI engines have 100k or more miles on them.

Again, I am hoping for nothing less that tremendous success for the EB and all of Ford's vehicles.

George

amascio 05-08-2011 09:26 PM

I had an '08 Mazdaspeed3 that I used as a daily driver and I never did anything to that car until I traded it in at 54k miles on a new '11 Platinum EB. It drove just as strong the last day I drove it as the first. I never seafoamed it, replaced spark plugs, NOTHING but drive the heck out of it. I did use mostly premium Shell for gas and Pennzoil Platinum / Ultra for oil on 4500 mile oil change intervals with Mazda filters. 2 air filters rounds out his maintenance program. Surely Ford monitored this engine and learned.

Besides, if decarboning is needed, I'm sure Motorcraft will develop some sort of sea foam product that blow all that stuff out.

VWAG may be having a heck of a time with their engines, but I haven't heard much from the BMW camp about carbon deposits - their engines just chew up the high pressure fuel pumps with alarming regularity. My younger brother had a 335i that virtually liquidated his driving license with points before he had to get a car that was less of a party. That car never gave up; his license did! 55k on it.
We'll see how this plays out, I have 2 Ecoboost engines here; an FX4 and a Platinum, so you know I'm in!
Cheers!


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