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1968-2013 Full Size Vans Econolines. E150, E250, E350, E450 and E550

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  #1  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:58 AM
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Suspension Upgrades ??

2000 E250, 5.4l, 4R70W, Michelin LTX 245/70-R16 @70psi, new ball joints, tie rods/ends and center link, fresh shocks, urethane bushings in radius arms, axle pivots, Hellwig HD front and rear sway bars. Brakes stock but fresh...Mobility Works raised roof with extended height rear doors. Front end wise the only not yet changed is the steering box and U joints for the steering column. Loaded weight with me and 1/4 tank of fuel is 7400 pounds. Typically that is the highest weight this truck ever sees, never pulling a trailer----no hitch, no need/desire.

I'm looking for better handling, especially during evasive manuevers avoiding careless drivers on my local roads and highways. Better shocks ("premium" NAPA gas charged) might add a bit but I'm fully convinced the stock coil spings need to be changed (240K miles) to a higher rate. I'm told the E350 and E250 share the same front spring. Rear springs are okay according to my spring shop which to them means no cracks in the individual leaves and the main leaf is arched properly still.

Anyone here have any experience with increasing the handling characteristics of these beasts? A friend's '99 E250 (138K miles) seems to be much "tighter" which I'm not sure can be attributed to its lower mileage (no apparent front end work done so far). I've been looking for different springs but seems the E Series aren't as well supported in the after market.

Would appreciate any ideas or suggetions on this possible upgrade I'd like to do.

Thanks---great site by the way!!


J W
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  #2  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:12 PM
YoGeorge YoGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by JWA View Post
2000 E250, 5.4l, 4R70W, Michelin LTX 245/70-R16 @70psi, new ball joints, tie rods/ends and center link, fresh shocks, urethane bushings in radius arms, axle pivots, Hellwig HD front and rear sway bars. Brakes stock but fresh...Mobility Works raised roof with extended height rear doors. Front end wise the only not yet changed is the steering box and U joints for the steering column. Loaded weight with me and 1/4 tank of fuel is 7400 pounds. Typically that is the highest weight this truck ever sees, never pulling a trailer----no hitch, no need/desire.

I'm looking for better handling, especially during evasive manuevers avoiding careless drivers on my local roads and highways. Better shocks ("premium" NAPA gas charged) might add a bit but I'm fully convinced the stock coil spings need to be changed (240K miles) to a higher rate. I'm told the E350 and E250 share the same front spring. Rear springs are okay according to my spring shop which to them means no cracks in the individual leaves and the main leaf is arched properly still.

Anyone here have any experience with increasing the handling characteristics of these beasts? A friend's '99 E250 (138K miles) seems to be much "tighter" which I'm not sure can be attributed to its lower mileage (no apparent front end work done so far). I've been looking for different springs but seems the E Series aren't as well supported in the after market.

Would appreciate any ideas or suggetions on this possible upgrade I'd like to do.

Thanks---great site by the way!!


J W
You have a raised roof van, which is the last vehicle in the world that would "handle" well. I don't think harder springs will help--it will just judder around more on rough roads and the tires will spend less time in contact with the road. With the separate body/frame construction, the frame will just move around more if you go to harder springs, and the body may be flopping around on the frame. Also, the roof has been cut out, so your body is not as stiff as a factory van--it's like a cardboard box with a couple sides missing. The sports car handling guys use strut braces and stuff like that to stiffen the structure, whereas you have a tough, but flexible and limp structure.

A wider rim might help your tires feel stiffer and flop around less from side to side, but the Michelins are probably pretty decent for handling. I have LTX M/S's on my E150 and they are excellent tires.

To make the van handle significantly better, think about lowering it (which is not easy with the twin I beams) to lower the center of gravity, going to a wider tire tread and/or running additional pressure, but again, it's a raised roof full size van, and it is never going to be good at evasive maneuvers. Getting ridiculous about it, lower it and have a full roll cage welded in to stiffen the structure. Then you can start worrying about suspension mods. Otherwise, drive slower, mostly.

I have had full sized vans since 1986, have never hit anything or lost control, but I drive them accordingly. I also have a BMW for driving on twisty roads and "handling" well.

George
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:07 PM
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ALWAYS WANTED TO TRY FRONT AIR BAGS.NOT VERY EXPENSIVE AND CAN FINE TUNE THEM .MAY GIVE THEM A TRY BUT LIKE PREVIOUS STATED YOU CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH WITH A BIG BLOCK STEEL GOING DOWN THE ROAD !!!!!!
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  #4  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:26 AM
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I put air bags inside my coils up front, if a man in a wheelchair can do this, everyone else should be able to also, downside is it stiffens the ride, which is harsh to start with, but I have very little sway, hang corners with the best of them. Poly bushings, harder than rubber, I always used them in my off road rigs due to wearing the rubber out, it'll make the ride even more rigid, unnecessary in a road vehicle. Unless your vehicle has a plow or wheelchair lift, your coils up front will be fine, they are over kill to start with, the van itself will not break them down, added weight does, reason why wheelchair vans list to the passenger side.
Mine is a 99 E-350 ext 15 passenger van stripped of all rear seating with a sofa/bed over the axle, side door wheelchair lift, power door motors and a custom build sound system.
I have no problems flying down the highway be it the speed limit or exceeding it, my van is tight with 140,000 miles, other than I believe a ball joint is in need or replacement, but stock height makes a big difference. My van weighs 8000 lbs says the scale I drove across a few years ago, the weight isn't an issue, it's the height, you top gives more surface for air to buffet you around. I had a 3/4 Chevy before this one, and I paid dearly to get it's front end rebuilt, I put air shocks under the rear of it, the wind would shake the crap out of it.
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  #5  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:46 AM
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Thanks so far guys---all good stuff!

I don't need or want a road racer, not about to hit slalom courses on weekends---was hoping for a more solid feel---ts by no means unacceptable as is. In keeping with good defensive driving practices I don't hit excessive speeds, rarely exceeding the legal limits by more than 5mph. The height advantage my chassis has over most passenger vehicles is a benefit--add in I tend to drive looking through the car in fronts windshield I'm not often caught in panic stops or manuevers.

I have noticed the loss of rigidity in the upper body due the raised roof installation---previously this was a wheelchair lift vehicle.

So I guess for now things will be fine---just one of those upgrades I was hoping existed. Thanks again for the feedback!


J W
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  #6  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:34 AM
JamesG123 JamesG123 is offline
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If a kit doesn't exist, that just means you have to work a little harder to get what you want.

I'm also in this boat, but probably a bit more extreme. I've got a 93 E150 conversion with yes, a big ol fiberglass boat glued on the top. The suspension is so worn it feels like driving a marshmellow down the road.
Its all good though. Gives me the excuse to really go to town and completely rebuild the suspension and steering.

My intent is for a modern full adjustable suspension, since I'll be using it on a variety of terrains from super-slab to near off-road. Airbags front and rear to give adjustable "preload" and ride height, and Rancho RS9000XL to be able to adjust damping.

There lies the problem. They don't list RS9000s for the Econolines. Does anyone know which truck is compatable? Or know the shock lengths and eye diameters of the E150's front and rear shocks?

TIA
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  #7  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:13 AM
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If a kit doesn't exist, that just means you have to work a little harder to get what you want.

I'm also in this boat, but probably a bit more extreme. I've got a 93 E150 conversion with yes, a big ol fiberglass boat glued on the top. The suspension is so worn it feels like driving a marshmellow down the road.
Its all good though. Gives me the excuse to really go to town and completely rebuild the suspension and steering.

My intent is for a modern full adjustable suspension, since I'll be using it on a variety of terrains from super-slab to near off-road. Airbags front and rear to give adjustable "preload" and ride height, and Rancho RS9000XL to be able to adjust damping.

There lies the problem. They don't list RS9000s for the Econolines. Does anyone know which truck is compatable? Or know the shock lengths and eye diameters of the E150's front and rear shocks?

TIA
No idea on the shocks, but Econolines do not lend themselves to adjustable ride height on the front end because the twin I-beams have the correct camber at ONE ride height only, hopefully the one that your van has. Pick your ride height and either change or bend the I-beams as needed. I suppose if you went up an inch in ride height temporarily that nobody would die from the positive camber, but it would sure not help handling. Also, using air bags to stiffen the front end would necessarily mean you would be raising the ride height and increasing positive camber, not a good thing for handling. (The autocrossers like negative camber.)

One suggestion for the OP is to make sure the front end is really, really aligned well. At a real truck alignment shop, not your neighborhood tire dealer. One guy on this forum a couple years ago got a new (to him) van and it was really squirrely despite being "aligned"....but he took it to a good shop and they found it was out quite a bit.

As for shocks, I know they make good KYB's and Bilsteins for my '02 E150 although I have not changed them out. I had some Gas-A-Just KYB's on an old Toyota Land Crusher and they were sure firm.

My first two big vans were Turtle Top camper conversions, with the factory tops largely removed via a large can opener....I was always afraid of what might happen if I rolled one down a mountain.

Good luck and be safe,
George
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  #8  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:15 PM
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The I-beams have ball joints, and camber inserts, after installing the air bags up front, I aired them to where I felt comfortable, they are separate of each other, aired independently, ran a month to get settled, then had the camber set with a new alignment. The size of my van, it requires a certain rack to be setup, they gave me the camber inserts at cost, as they are a dealer item and not kept in stock as each are a certain degree, requiring them to keep many on hand, my stock ones were a zero, I have it in the tool box.
I don't race mine either, on a trip, I was on a country road and a deer jumped across my path, the maneuver I made, I barely clipped it, but should have turned the van over, it was stiff enough to not lean over on me.
There are lowering beams for our Econoline's, not the DJM tubular ones either, but heavy welded steel, Would love a set, bringing them down increases stability as it lowers the center of gravity.
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  #9  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:17 PM
YoGeorge YoGeorge is offline
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The I-beams have ball joints, and camber inserts, after installing the air bags up front, I aired them to where I felt comfortable, they are separate of each other, aired independently, ran a month to get settled, then had the camber set with a new alignment. The size of my van, it requires a certain rack to be setup, they gave me the camber inserts at cost, as they are a dealer item and not kept in stock as each are a certain degree, requiring them to keep many on hand, my stock ones were a zero, I have it in the tool box.
I don't race mine either, on a trip, I was on a country road and a deer jumped across my path, the maneuver I made, I barely clipped it, but should have turned the van over, it was stiff enough to not lean over on me.
There are lowering beams for our Econoline's, not the DJM tubular ones either, but heavy welded steel, Would love a set, bringing them down increases stability as it lowers the center of gravity.
Interesting info on the camber inserts--my real awareness of twin I-beams dates back to my 1978 F100 pickup, which I bought new. But that had the old kingpins instead of ball joints. Thanks for the info on the camber inserts (although I have a feeling that the amount of adjustment may be fairly limited.) It also sounds like you found the correct shop to do the alignment for you.

Glad to hear you survived swerving for the deer--it's a real mess to hit one, but you can sometimes hurt yourself and your vehicle more by swerving.

Keep the rubber side down, everyone,
George
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:34 PM
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Question...I recently found a set of the drop I beams, think they are 3" drop. Do you need to change the coil springs when using these?
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
One suggestion for the OP is to make sure the front end is really, really aligned well. At a real truck alignment shop, not your neighborhood tire dealer. One guy on this forum a couple years ago got a new (to him) van and it was really squirrely despite being "aligned"....but he took it to a good shop and they found it was out quite a bit.
Oh all suspension work is done by my areaís top independent spring/suspension shop----none of those tire stores! We all know or should know tire shops are up sellers on anything they offer---scaring the Bejesus out of unaware consumer-type vehicle owners is their main source of profits. Sounds a bit cynical but knowing a bit more than most its easy to spot the ďsellĒ and accompanying hype or BS accompanying it! Not trying to brag but my windshield business puts me in contact with some of the best and honest shops locally so I know who Iím dealing with long before we exchange money.

Funny thing though---last quote for both sides upper and lower ball joints, alignment and installing my furnished urethane axle pivot and radius arm bushings came to over $1,100---alignment ďsomewhere between $79 and $185....Ē! LOL This was them furnishing the parts of course---no comment or guarantee whether those would be American made. Found the bushings easily enough then hit Amazon for ball jointsóbought all four Moog (made in India) for just at $100, bushings maybe $40 total---canít remember exactly. These were delivered prices mind you!

S&S Spring shop installed everything AND aligned it for $389 + tax, let me watch and pester the techs with incessant questions too! I did give those guys a tip---took all of 2.5 hours since the axle pivot bushings were a bit problematic. Should add camber bushings didnít need replaced but even at $30 each list price I was still far far below the in-town shop. These guys work on big stuff and while E vans are somewhat small potatoes to them theyíre still highly skilled, incredible reputation for miles around (Iím about 40 away) and Iíve heard their name constantly for the past 20 years.

(The camber bushings do have very limited ranges of adjustment---each being maybe just one full degree maximum. Ford special orders them based upon determining what degree of offset is required. If you need something not immediately available down time might be an issue---as mentioned I was lucky)

My big dollar Michelinís are checked weekly for pressure and wear----even depth across the tread with no apparent wear at all. Iím assured all is well mechanically up front.

Have considered the Blisteinís but at just over $400 for all four AND the monumental hassle they are to change at this point Iím not sure if theyíll live long enough to warrant that expense. If 50k miles is the expected life that would be about 2 years but if they give me appreciable improvement its a strong consideration. I do have those huge Hellwig sway bars front and back which makes a major improvement---not cheap though. I think both would cost nearly $500 but the engineering concepts behind them are quite sound or at least appealed to me. Adding just the rear bar even with the stock front along with itís worn I Beam mounted bushings makes a huge difference. Changing the stock front bushings to urethane also helps but not as much as the upgraded front bar.

Ride height canít be changed because I run the LTX 245/16-R70 which need a lot of room. I donít like changing any vehicleís geometry unless a full refit kit is available---even at that for a daily driver not of the racing variety it seems a costly and not so useful modification. If I still owned a body shop this sort of thing would be cake---plenty of equipment and time to experiment. These days a severely sloped driveway just ainít the same!

Sorry to ramble so much-----just like weak brakes its tough to whoa up sometimes......

Last edited by JWA; 08-03-2010 at 06:42 PM. Reason: Wrong Font
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:55 PM
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My big dollar Michelinís are checked weekly for pressure and wear----even depth across the tread with no apparent wear at all. Iím assured all is well mechanically up front.

Have considered the Blisteinís but at just over $400 for all four AND the monumental hassle they are to change at this point Iím not sure if theyíll live long enough to warrant that expense. If 50k miles is the expected life that would be about 2 years but if they give me appreciable improvement its a strong consideration....

Sorry to ramble so much-----just like weak brakes its tough to whoa up sometimes......
I love Michelin LTX M/S tires and have had great service from them on my E150. Changed the first set out at 55k because winter was coming, but my brother ran the first set on his pickup for at least 25k more miles.

I have had Bilsteins on a couple Euro cars and their lifespan is well over 100k miles, maybe 150k or more. Different league than the old school American shocks. KYB Gas A Just are a lot less expensive and are still excellent shocks--if they make them for your application. (For what it's worth, I have the original shocks on my '02 E150 at 83k miles.)

Rambling isn't a problem--I do it a lot. If we're talking about suspension, adding to the database for us other van owners is useful. It's clear that you know what's going on with your suspension...just don't expect much handling from a raised roof van.

I will note that the old unibody vans like my old '86 GMC were somewhat better handlers--due in part to MUCH lower weight, especially with wider wheels and 255/70 performance tires which I used to use on that. I also had some really stiff Gabriel Red Ryder shocks on that one. The structure, being a unit body, was stiffer. Mine was a Turtle Top conversion and I remember once really cooking through a corner, and one of the drawers in the "kitchen" cabinet flew out and hit the other side of the van.

George
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:35 PM
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Thanks for the encouragement George---hope we've not created a monster!

If the Bilsteins would last 75k > 100k the blue chip investment might be worth it. As it is now I have at least $200 in the NAPA Premium's so longer life would certainly offset and make more reasonable that cost.

My most aggressive driving would be freeway ramps, exit and entrance. Its still a thrill going in just a bit too deep and too fast but hitting the marks for best performance. This assumes no other traffic around though---never looking to cause excitement for another. This is where firmly valved shocks would greatly the sway bars already in place. Since everything else is new Bilsteins would be the last remaining item.

You're correct about the GMC G vans----unibody "handling" is what I recall most about them. A friend dropped an LT-1 Chevy engine into his, found some outrageously road hugging suspension components and had a very tight and responsive vehicle. It was the longer wheelbase model, not sure of the measurement but wasn't the shortest available.

With the E Series we have body-on-frame, much higher ride height coupled with the 75 series tires they're not sports cars. Oh well----'twas a great idea until we started adding logic and reality to it all!

J W
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:37 AM
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The drop beams go with stock coils, they relocate the spindles, not the spring mount.
The GM vans are not as tight as the Fords, they sit a little lower maybe, and the truck drop spindles will fit up to the early 90's, but as I can tell you, the Econoline is superior on lasting, their ball joints last 10 times longer, most GM vans need them every 60,000 miles.
The deer wouldn't have been an issue, but I mold into my vehicles when I set in them, I opened it up, I know every curve and can feel exactly what it will let me get away with, I just went to duck around her and she stepped backward.
Here's stock height with the bags at 35 psi, I'd drop it if I wasn't focused on building my 73 E-100 into a powerful sleeper.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:16 AM
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well lots of good ideas been tossed out, but one thing that i found made a world of difference was getting the rear track width equal to or slightly wider than the front track. if memory serves, the rear wheels are 3" closer together than the front. i ran spacers until the recent purchase of new wheels allowed me to specify backspacing sufficient to correct the problem w/o using the spacers. (hint hint i got a very nice set for someone with 8 on 6.5" just gathering dust)

other items- bilsteins all around - and i got tired of the rear shocks upper mount spitting out the rubber washers every 20-30k miles so i converted the upper mount into an eyelet style mount. also, bilstein will rebuild your old shocks and you can work with them to revalve to suit your needs for a very reasonable price ($65). they are in poway just down the road from me and are great to deal with.

polyurethane suspension bushings - esp for the sway bars front and rear. the really big sway bars.

a limited slip rear axle. gear up/gear down - whatever makes you happy, but stuff in an lsd.

with stock sized rubber and the above mods, i ran the length of the lower snake river canyon road _easily_ doing 75. just like Maples01, i was snugged in my chair, stereo cranked, a/c knocking down the 100deg+ heat to 72, hammering down the road to a cold beer and a weekend working high sierra.
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